a (00:01)
Hey y'all, welcome back to Rebelling. In this conversation, we start out with Lupe the dog. She's anxious and needs soothing. That leads us to talking about what happens when we stop managing other people's experiences of us and start paying attention to our own needs. We talk about self sufficiency, people pleasing, receiving, friendship.

Conflict, and the courage that it takes to let relationships be messy and real. Together, we wonder whether steady ground isn't something we create by controlling the outcome, but something we experience when we stay connected to ourselves while we stay in relationship with others. Here's another conversation with Erin

a (01:10)
Thanks for taking the time to listen to Rebelling. Looking forward to seeing you next time.

Amy (01:22)
Where I not that I'm trying to like make you do anything you don't wanna do, but also like

Erin (01:30)
I love when you start sentences like that.

Amy (01:33)
Like don't you don't you want to do this like regularly? Right. It's like our our our podcast.

Erin (01:41)
I mean I love it. It was really fun to listen to.

Amy (01:46)
I really loved it too. I'm I'm caught up in my Notion that it did something and now I don't know what it did and I don't know why. Okay, good. Now this part's back. I also just thought it was awesome. Just like

listening back to it, it just felt so flowy and good and

was all.

Erin (02:16)
Yeah. Yeah, I you know, there's no pressure. This isn't like a class or

I don't know, any of the pressury things.

Amy (02:32)
It makes me wonder, like the question that we we asked at the end was what is your steady ground? Yeah that we were talking about that I was thinking about.

And it makes me wonder like the pressure that you were just saying of of being able to just sit here and talk and to not to remember we're recording this and then to remember in that same thought and and that's cool.

To let go of whatever attachment there is to the judgment of what's here and to just like let the thread go and unspool wherever it wants to in a creative way without trying to be right.

Erin (03:27)
Right or good. Yeah, it's letting go of control, right?

Amy (03:33)
uhuh Again and again and again and again.

Erin (03:36)
And again.

Yep. Yep. Throughout. That's a great practice.

Amy (03:43)
Just thinking the same thing. What an interesting practice. Yeah. Of just coming back to that. my God. Also.

Erin (03:56)
Hey. Are we a little anxious?

Amy (03:59)
That

face is so what are we talking about?

Erin (04:04)
Hello, this is Lupe.

Amy (04:06)
Lupe,

what are we talking about today?

Erin (04:09)
I don't know, but I love it. I just love I love people. And people talking and people petting me. The girl.

I think that made her a little nervous because she can see out the window. She could she was watching and barking. So we'll just calmly discuss interesting things.

Amy (04:35)
without getting no. But but is it it's also like she's nervous. So she's like, hey, excuse me, I can you no I'm not gonna you're doing something. I'm not gonna bother you.

Erin (04:51)
Exactly.

Amy (04:54)
I see you're I see you're having a conversation. So my needs, I'll just forget and pretend I don't need anything and I'm not gonna say anything. Whereas Lupe's like, Hi, I'm a little I I just need a little soothing. Do you mind?

Erin (05:12)
Yeah. you do mind? Okay, well let me just climb up on your lap. You

Amy (05:17)
yeah.

Erin (05:17)
don't want my face in your face. Yeah.

Amy (05:20)
But are you sure? I really, I really, I really need it. And you're like, okay, I got you. I got you. It's cool.

Erin (05:27)
Yeah.

Amy (05:28)
But then like, all right, now.

And now it's okay. Are you still petting are you still petting her?

Erin (05:39)
yeah, other side though. Yeah. Why can't we do that for each other and ourselves? Right.

Amy (05:50)
But it's interesting too, Erin, because like what's happened is also that you've allowed yourself to connect with her. And now you're you're able to now I can be in this conversation and I'm also just kind of over here, like with a dog, but also with myself. And it's not maybe it's not as easy.

Erin (06:14)
Yeah.

Amy (06:16)
But it's possible.

Erin (06:19)
Yeah, it's so different with our pets for me, right? If this was another person, I don't have kids, I am you know reparenting myself, and it's like wow, I easily

would would say like I'm doing something, I don't have time right now. I have to focus on this conversation to my like, you know, little kid self. When with Lupe, I'm like, she needs soothing. She needs this. And it's okay. She still needs this. I'm still petting her, right? Like, and I'm still in this conversation. But gosh, it's so different with myself. It's like the worthiness.

Amy (07:13)
This is something that comes up every day in the in the work that I do with people. Every day there's so much compassion and understanding and kindness, other people, animals, anyone else. And then when it comes to ourselves, we just have no patience. None. Right.

Not even the ab I've been thinking so much about like tending and caring this week.

And what what that impatience with ourselves is made up of is kind of what my brain just thought.

Erin (08:05)
What are your thoughts?

Amy (08:12)
I wonder if it's

Because when the dog comes up to you, when Lupe comes up and is like, Hey, why why and I have to be honest, sometimes my cats are like and I'm like, go away. Like, we're not doing this right now.

But what is it what is it that

makes us feel like like I can feel impinged upon.

Erin (08:51)
Whoa, whoa, yeah.

Yeah.

Amy (08:57)
What made you say whoa

Erin (09:00)
It is this is something for my week that's coming up. It's it's the demand where everything feels like a demand.

Any interaction is like a demand and I think

It's so ingrained to just like appease other people or pets or whomever their demands are valid. Or even if they're not not meeting their demands is is not worth the

the conflict or the outcome.

But my demands don't feel don't carry that same weight. It's very new actually to even because I think my demands are aren't they're not demands, they're needs.

So to even recognize like, this is a need. I need to be soothed. It's like, I don't know what to do with that. I'm used to a demand from someone else that I'm like, yeah, okay, obviously you need this. Let me help you.

Amy (10:22)
Even if we don't think it's a valid demand.

Erin (10:27)
Right Right

Amy (10:32)
Like

Is it performative?

Erin (10:39)
probably, yeah.

Amy (10:42)
The performance of goodness, the

Erin (10:44)
Kindness, niceness, they're not the same. Right. Like how do you want to be perceived?

Amy (10:52)
Yeah.

And then either

My capacity for meeting demands is saved for others so that when it comes to meeting my own demands and needs, there's like I just don't have any I don't have anything left for that.

Like I'm really stingy with myself.

Erin (11:23)
Ooh, yeah.

Yeah.

Amy (11:31)
Because I'm the only I'm the person paying the price.

Erin (11:36)
And perceiving yourself, right? It's like

Amy (11:42)
Mm. that's good, Erin Like what what is my what if I'm in a if I'm in relationship with myself and I'm stingy with myself all the time, what's my relationship with myself like?

Erin (11:58)
Yeah.

Amy (11:59)
Like would I be friends with me? Like

Erin (12:04)
Yeah.

Amy (12:06)
Sometimes no. I mean a lot more today than I have before, but

What is it that makes it okay to treat ourselves like shit and be so available and ready for other other people, other beings, other situations?

Erin (12:38)
I mean, I think it's part of masking. I think having needs.

has just not been okay. That's like selfish, right? Or too much. You need too much. Just so well, I don't want to that doesn't feel good. Like if that's how you see me. But taking care of other people's needs, that's like admirable. Dependable, like

selfless, kind. Yeah, I like being seen like that. That's how you that's how I get along with people or how I move through the world. It's hard to move through the world if you're

seen in a negative light.

Right. If you believe you're selfish for taking care of yourself.

Amy (13:40)
Or you believe you're selfish because you won't do the things that other people need you to do.

Erin (13:46)
Right.

Amy (13:50)
Like yeah.

I don't know if this happens to you, but often I wonder like what is it like to be a person who is able to take up that space? Mm-hmm. Like right now I have there's a show at Mettlesome tonight and I asked a friend if she wanted to go join us, meet us there. And so sh like, it looks like the website's not working to get tickets and I'm like, Well what what am I supposed to do about that? Like

But but then I go check it out. I try to make it work. I look at it. I'd like try to go a couple of different ways. Like, how can I get this to work?

But I would never ask that question of someone else. I would just try to figure it out on my own. Right. And so I'm always like fascinated when people are just like, hey, this website's not working. What's going on?

Like, how do you do that? How do you ask those kind of questions?

And not feel like you're the one who should be taking care of it.

Erin (15:15)
Yeah, absolutely happens to me. Yeah. You know how we were talking last week about

Unspoken agreements. I think we each carry our own unspoken agreements. And I think for you and I, it's like, don't ask, well, I guess the agreement would be.

Be self sufficient or figure it out on your own. Don't be a bother.

Amy (15:48)
Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Erin (15:51)
And so then other people don't have the same unspoken agreements and then feel like resentful because it's like so much more labor. Because I think I must also have the unspoken agreement of

the

accommodating. So I will go on the website for you and figure it out or look at it. I don't want to be a bad friend. I invited you. Like, you know, you just take it's double.

labor, we double it for ourselves.

Amy (16:36)
doubling it because of what?

Erin (16:47)
Mm, is that how we're showing our worth?

Amy (16:50)
That's

Erin (16:53)
It's like

Amy (16:54)
Yeah. And is it masking too?

Erin (16:58)
yes, I think so.

Amy (17:02)
And not

We were talking about translation too.

And

The uns like I'm thinking about the unspoken agreement of I will be a person who translates the world for other people.

Erin (17:21)
Yeah.

Amy (17:23)
I I will circumvent myself.

to get you whatever you like, I will help.

Erin (17:34)
Ta-da!

Amy (17:35)
I love I love to help. But one of the things that I think about so much is I cannot be a good helper if I'm not a good receiver.

Erin (17:47)
yeah.

How do you become a good receiver if you've never learned to receive? And then you may learn, but

You have to put yourself, you have to let yourself be in situations where you can practice receiving too, which means asking for help or asking the questions.

Amy (18:19)
Is help another form of control?

Erin (18:28)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Yeah, I'd love to know what you're what you were thinking when you asked that.

Amy (18:49)
thinking about

It's kind of like controlling the narrative.

Yeah. And so if I get the the text that says, I can't like, did you get how'd you get tickets? Like the website's not working, you're like, I'm not sure. The end. But instead, I wrote this long, you know, like, I got my tickets in advance. I'm not sure. The venue's pretty small. Like,

Erin (19:25)
Mm-hmm.

Amy (19:25)
I'm I don't know what's going on.

Whatever.

I don't know I don't know what else I could say, but

I'm I it feels like I muddy the water by trying to make it like nice or sort of take responsibility for something that's not mine. Like

Erin (19:56)
Right.

Amy (19:57)
I I haven't done anything wrong, but I feel like

I have in a way.

Erin (20:07)
Mm-hmm.

Gosh, yeah. When you were describing that, I felt it.

Because you know, I've had the same experience. It's like the when you start explaining your process or anything really in a in an effort to

One be understood, but two kind of manage the other person's experience.

it's like

It's not bad again, like none of it is good, bad, right or wrong. It's

Help is not inherently bad. Help is good. It's lovely, you know. And the way I think we, like as neuro complex beings, help or think we're helping is actually.

Really extractive to ourselves.

Because you were trying to help her understand.

help her get tickets or but you all were also like

you know, needing to be understood. I'm sorry, I'm like putting that on you.

Amy (21:44)
It well feeling like it I I'm feeling impatient. Right.

Erin (21:48)
I got tickets. You're gonna go back and like Right, right.

Amy (21:55)
But but to the the conditioning to to do that extra work

Erin (22:02)
Mm-hmm. The help.

Amy (22:04)
right so to manage the other person's experience of me

And then I think the reason that it feels like it can feel I can feel impatient is because like I don't have this energy to give to that, but now I have to because that's what a friend does.

Erin (22:37)
Ding ding ding.

Yes. gosh. And you nailed it when you said managing someone's experience of you.

Not just the experience in the world, it's of you.

Amy (22:56)
Yeah. It's it's not actually about them.

Erin (23:03)
Yes, what?

Amy (23:05)
Mean at all.

Erin (23:07)
Right. Right. Dang it.

Amy (23:18)
But what do you do instead?

Erin (23:20)
Yeah, great question.

Amy (23:24)
Even just to leave it un unanswered.

To be able to what I'm picturing is getting this message. I have, I don't know, ten minutes before I'm hopping on here.

I don't really want like I need that time to like transition myself over into this space and to be be able to be really present. That's important to me.

But then I see that because it pops up on my, you know, iPad, the texts come to my iPad, they come to my computer. And instead of checking in with myself, like, what do you what do you need to do here?

Erin (24:14)
It's

Amy (24:17)
I just automatically like, this 10 minutes that I saved to make sure that I'm here, that goes out the window. Now I'm online looking at reservation, checking my phone, checking on the iPad. Like, is it is it the platform? Is it the whatever? Yeah. So why why not just go, I can come back to that later? Well, because I'm afraid I'll forget.

Erin (24:45)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, it's like this pathway has been created that is it's like it's not the easiest choice to to like go through and and try to figure out on your own and like explain it. But it is easier, I think, has become easier than checking in with yourself and saying, What do I need? That's hard, right? Especially if you start doing it in your forties. I mean

That's me. I'm I just started learning, you know, identifying that I have needs I've been ignoring my whole life in my 40s. So this is a well-worn path to make something it's easier to do the familiar, which isn't easy at all. But

If you check in with yourself, that means like a way different mode. That's being still and present and going inward and like, that's different than the doing, figuring out, wrapping it up, right?

And it another thought and I lost it.

Amy (26:08)
The judgment, the judgment comes in immediately for me.

Erin (26:16)
What's the judgment?

Amy (26:17)
Like

Well, it's just a minute. Like, really? Is it that big of a deal? Like, come on. Like, just answer. It's it's not it's not nice to leave this person wondering what's going on. Right. Just take a just take a couple minutes. What's the big deal?

Don't be selfish.

Erin (26:52)
Yeah.

Amy (26:59)
And also it feels like in that moment I don't ta I don't ta I don't like carry the the narrative forward. I just carry it I carry it up to the point where I'm the bad person.

And then I'm like, well, I gotta prevent this from happening. Instead of, okay, yeah, yeah, maybe the nice thing to do would be to answer. Also, it was really important for me to have these 10 minutes and I care about my time and and what I've promised myself. Well, what if she's mad? Like you invited her. Yep. And if she's mad, I can I can deal with that.

Yeah.

Erin (27:51)
Yeah.

lot if you're not used to doing it, right?

Amy (27:58)
Is it size also? Like it feels like a big everything feels big. Yeah.

And I really feel like one of the things that

In situations like this, like I really need to learn how to be able to know, like, okay, how big is this?

Erin (28:23)
Yeah.

Amy (28:29)
It is she actually gonna is our friendship gonna end because I didn't answer right away about getting tickets. But it can feel that way.

Erin (28:41)
Yeah, absolutely. I don't know what your relationship is like with masking in friendships. I'm just learning about mine and that I've been performing friendship.

which is not sustainable turns out. And and so every time I show up, you know, in a friendship, it's like

Big, right? Like, excuse me. Yeah, I'll drink.

Where as I've learned like

Friendship is comprised of the big and small, boring, mundane. But I never was able to see the boring and mundane as being relevant in a friendship. So it was always like the most of me, like the the biggest gestures or events or whatever.

So that didn't allow for like rupture, small ruptures and repairs, right? It didn't allow for like daily friendship life. And so these to me, like this exact situation you're describing, feel it does feel big because I've been performing, performing friendship. And how do you perform?

a resolution to this. You do what you're you're used to doing, which for me would be the same. Like do it, figure it out for them. Mm-hmm. rather than take a risk that you are friends and this is like a normal

Cycle of friendship that she might get mad, like, my gosh, can you mad me? I'm I'm seeing from this. Someone being mad at me. I can't handle it, is the bigness that that comes up. Like, but really, I can and I want to. And that's like that's the kind of friendship I want. But I think not having those, not knowing myself.

I haven't let myself be that kind of friend. I haven't known I haven't known what I was actually doing in friendships.

Amy (31:26)
Hundred percent. Because

I don't I don't know about you, but I can sometimes be a reflection of people. And so mirror like taking on what it feels like they need. And I'm I'm deciding this, right? So this is all like this isn't again, it's not about the other person. It's about like I'm deciding who I need to be.

in in this relationship and and same like I'm hey I'm gonna keep up with us and like I'm gonna make sure we stay connected or like I'm gonna do this nice little thing or this other nice little thing.

almost trying to be make myself indispensable, right? Like, you don't want to do life without me. Look how great this is. Yeah. But then what about me?

Erin (32:33)
Right.

There is no you. There's the performance of you as a friend.

Amy (32:45)
And it's really hard to trust that if I'm myself, you're gonna stick around.

It's interesting too, because I just I just had a friendship end that for the first time ever, I after several weeks spoke up and said, I'm just not comfortable. I can't do this. Like I can't pretend like everything's okay when it feels like there's something unresolved between us.

And the person said, I don't s I don't really have the capacity to figure this out and I don't see how it would do any good to to talk through it. Wish you the best.

And I was like

Here I felt so proud of myself for saying, hey, we've got this tension between us. Let's talk. And they weren't in a place to be able to do that.

Erin (34:00)
Yeah.

Amy (34:02)
And it's been interesting to deal still deal with like anger, a little bit of grief around it.

But also to have decided to take up space and then to lose the friendship.

Erin (34:20)
Yeah.

Wow, Amy, that's awesome.

Amy (34:25)
Yeah.

It it w it's also been really interesting to watch

Instead of trying to control the outcome and to be the good person in the situation, to actually not have to have judgment around it. Like there doesn't have to be one of us that's good and one of us that's bad. We're just two people who in the place where we are right now, we are not matching up. Our needs aren't matching. That doesn't mean that my needs are bad.

Or the other person's needs are bad. It just means they're incompatible.

Erin (35:09)
Yeah.

How and how cool that.

I mean

Whatever the outcome was, how cool that you had that conversation. And you each said what your capacity was and your needs were. And that's so great. I'm sorry that happened to you. Like I'm I know there's pain there too. And how awesome.

Amy (35:45)
But it almost it's interesting because n like talking about it, it's it's almost like that's one of the most genuine friendships that I've ever had.

Yeah, but because we were.

ourselves.

Erin (36:04)
Yeah. You had conflict and it wasn't wrapped up neatly and resolved and you didn't just like limp along ignoring things.

Amy (36:18)
Well, we did for a a couple months. But I mean, at the same time.

And that it felt out of control.

Erin (36:33)
What was the out of control part?

Amy (36:39)
Being willing to be vulnerable enough to say, hey, I'm actually not okay.

Erin (36:44)
Mm-hmm.

Amy (36:46)
I I'm not okay in this. I d this doesn't feel right to me. It feels like there's something we need to resolve between us.

And that it they d it didn't have to match the other person's experience.

Yeah, like we didn't have to agree.

Erin (37:13)
My gosh, what was that like when you realized you're you weren't gonna agree?

Amy (37:20)
I it was interesting. I was standing in line at the grocery store, waiting. And so I'm like looking at my email and I'm like, And I read the email and I'm like, This is not what I expected at all. my God. Like it just totally, you can see, like I just got all red, like, my God.

And immediately I'm like well.

This, you know, all these all these things. And it w it it was interesting to watch myself take off the layers of that of like, okay.

If I'm trying to make someone good or bad, like if there's the judgment is the way that I'm being in relationship with this situation.

then this is gonna turn out differently than if I can just be in relationship with it and it not be about who's good and who's bad. But what what do I need? What does this person need?

Like letting it get out of control. Yeah.

Erin (38:45)
Yeah, letting it get messy. That's scary.

Amy (38:50)
It it it was scary and it it it is scary.

But at the same time.

We're we're real clear about where we stand. Yeah.

So it f even though it doesn't feel good, right? It feels

relational.

Erin (39:20)
Yes. Wow. Yeah, that really resonates. All right, baby. And you have something now.

It's almost like you have something tangible to process. You have you have closure to like

process through and notice yourself processing through it. Or before you had tension, you were like in it, right? You can't you can't really process in the same way. Now you have like you have something. You have this experience. You have like this rep.

I don't know what we'd call it. I mean, number one, you're my hero.

Amy (40:14)
It was so

Erin (40:14)
I saw that

Amy (40:15)
hard. erin I'm fifty five years old and I've never been able to

In such a really like embodied way, I feel this way. It's not going away. I'm not gonna keep this unspoken agreement of friendship means we never are tense or or in conflict with each other. I'm just gonna let this go out there and see what happens with it. I'm not gonna manage the situation anymore so it turns out good.

Erin (40:53)
Mm-hmm.

Amy (40:54)
I don't want to ignore this. Like we were talking about, I to feel

Honest and by just making small talk and and doing the regular things that we always did in our friendship, like I I that didn't I could it didn't feel like me.

Erin (41:22)
Really?

Amy (41:27)
And it it cost me the friendship. Right.

Erin (41:29)
Right.

Right. It did. It cost you the friendship. And I was thinking

About what was the friendship? If you weren't in alignment when you were doing the things you usually did, like what was the friendship at that point? I think about this from the perspective of me and my ex-husband. We're way better friends now than we ever were when we were married.

And it's like people are sad we're not together anymore. And I'm like, why? You don't know, like, why would you want us in that situation where we were technically married but we were miserable? Right now we're like

Friends, you know, ex-spouses who hang out and we're we're joyful and happy to see each other. And but that's

I don't know, people don't celebrate that because they don't know. But it's it it's just what it reminded me of. It's like it cost you the friendship, but what was the friendship?

Was it a friendship you is that what you want in friendship? And it's not.

Amy (42:51)
It's not.

Erin (42:52)
You did it. You were like, this is not in alignment with me.

Amy (42:56)
And that I think is what's so important is that

You know, like my husband and I are in very similar situation. We lived apart for six. I was just like, I can't do this anymore. I feel like I'm losing myself every day. And I have to be on my own so I can remember who I am because I've just become this person in our relationship that is not good for me.

And to to be able to say that and leave a marriage just like you did, but that it didn't have to be, you're the bad one, I'm the good one. Just more like, hey, the way that we're in relationship isn't working. Can we can we salvage that? Is there something we can do? We get along great now. We live together again.

We have our own separate spaces. Like this part he's in my life forever. He's reliable, loyal, wonderful.

Erin (44:11)
Yeah.

Amy (44:14)
But not not.

I was asking him to be someone he wasn't and I was trying to be someone I wasn't and instead now we can just be ourselves.

Erin (44:28)
Yeah, you are you're aligned. Right. Who you are. Becoming more aligned all the time, I'm sure.

Amy (44:37)
And now like you can have a relationship with this person who you love dearly, but just the the it's so interesting how the the ideas of what it's supposed to look like is what actually chokes everything and makes it so suffocating.

Erin (45:00)
What a good word. What an apt word. Like I'm picturing your friendship, like you're doing the things you always did because that's what you do as friends. But that's suffocating. There's no air. There's it's like when you take all the air of it out of a Ziploc bag and seal it. It's like, well, here's our friendship. It's preserved. It's like, do you want to preserve that?

Amy (45:31)
And can it be different? Can it be not what it was yesterday and that still be it just feels alive? Yeah.

Erin (45:45)
And I think coming back to what we were talking about, like what it takes to do that is like

Noticing how performative it is, but then you know, in that noticing, coming back and asking, what do I need? What do I need? I I can't keep soothing everyone else, you know.

Amy (46:15)
And not caring for myself.

Erin (46:16)
Yeah,

and just because it's just scary. It is, it's uncomfortable, it's scary. It's all these words to keep ask to keep coming back to yourself and asking what you need. Because it's it's a lot and you've never done it, but it's so worth it.

Amy (46:34)
It's so worth it, especially because

When you're told that you're too much, too big, too, all of these th like we can't I can't deal with you. And the limited choices of people who you are dealing with when you're little.

But if you can't kind of lose control of yourself and let yourself just be yourself, then you don't find the people who can meet you in your needs, in who you are, who are willing to have conflict, who are willing to repair. Yeah.

Or who can be honest enough to say, Hey, I don't have the energy for this right now. And I don't feel like it's gonna do me any good. And I don't want to.

Erin (47:35)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean props, props to this person too. Like yeah. I think I said this word like five times now, but it's awesome. Yeah. It's like this this is relational. This is what it means to be in relationship. Real relationship, not just like labels of relationship. Yes. Yes, yes, yes.

Amy (48:02)
Yes. Yes, yes,

yes. Actually connected.

Even even if

It's not like magical and good. But it is, it is connected. And I think that's I wonder if that's the thing we think that we're gonna lose is the relationship. But actually the relationship becomes

Something steady ground

Erin (48:35)
Mm. Wow. I'm writing that down.

Instead of the illusion of steady ground.

Amy (48:47)
Instead of steady ground being an outcome.

Erin (48:52)
Yeah. Right.

Amy (48:57)
It's an experience.

Erin (48:59)
I love that.

Amy (49:00)
Yeah, yeah.

Erin (49:05)
Instead of an outcome.

that's really good.

Amy (49:17)
We were saying something about that earlier about

the Austin about the person knowing what you know, Austin is like this, but it you ha like you haven't experienced it.

And can you be can you be willing to have the experience of relationship?

rather than an outcome in relationship.

Erin (49:48)
My gosh, Amy, you know, it just came to me as you said that is what we're talking about is relationship with ourselves.

Amy (49:57)
Yes.

Erin (49:58)
And I think we've been trying to just have relationship with others without really our ourselves being involved.

what a difference, what a difference that is.

Amy (50:14)
and the experience of yourself.

Erin (50:18)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Because you are not when you're trying to have relationships without really bringing yourself, you are controlling the outcome. You're like

Trying to create an outcome.

Wow. But when you bring yourself, it's it's an experience. my gosh, I can't wait to think about this this week.

Amy (50:50)
It's so you're like managing other people's experience of you instead of like being with the experience of yourself

Erin (51:01)
Yeah.

Amy (51:02)
as a way to be in relationship.

Erin (51:07)
doesn't that make so much sense? Like how lonely it feels when you keep surrounded by people and you're like, I'm so lonely. Well, yeah, like you're you're not experiencing yourself. Yourself is like alone. Check in, gotta check in.

Amy (51:27)
And you're working to an outcome of like, I want to be seen as a good person, a good friend, a good, I'm helpful, I'm giving, I'm all of these things that are what we're working towards as identities when we leave out the actual experience of like, what is it like for me as a human? And can I be in relationship with that?

Erin (51:53)
Yeah. It's way it's way easier, way scarier to do that, but

Worth it.

Amy (52:03)
I think so too. All right. I'm gonna stop.

Erin (52:07)
gosh, that went so fast.

Amy (52:09)
Again. Yeah.

Yeah.

a (52:20)
Thanks for taking the time to listen to Rebelling. Looking forward to seeing you next time.