Rebelling

Amy: (00:00.14)
Welcome to Rebelling, a podcast for neurodivergent adults who know life's not all about being normal. It's about being human. On this podcast, we'll explore what it would be like to live in more neurodivergent affirming ways, how to recognize ourselves more and more in the world around us and feel like we make sense. This is our place to talk, research, imagine and create a world that includes us. Make sure you subscribe so you can be part of it all. I'm your host.

Amy Knott Parrish. Let's stop playing it cool. It's time to start rebelling.

Amy: (00:49.646)
Can you take me back to the moment when you first recognized, I might be autistic or ADHD, ADHD, neurodivergent? Like, what was that moment?

Kelly:
it was, it was ADHD first and it was probably five years ago. I was working and not able to organize my thoughts for how to, how to execute my day. Like in a way that I had always struggled with, but like this day, was just exponentially bad and I couldn't figure out why.

And I was having a conversation with a friend who is AuDHD. And she interrupted me as I was speaking to tell me her story about her AuDHD.


which kind of pissed me off at the time because I was really struggling. But because she did that and then she said, and that's a thing. This is what I'm doing right now is part of it. And she's like, you do it sometimes too.

And then we just kind of, she just sent me a bunch of links to information and I was like just reading and going, uh-huh, uh-huh, that's me, yeah that's me, yeah that's me. that's both of my children, I really, that's all of us, wow. So it was just like this light dawning in a dark closet.

Yeah, like that feeling of, my God, yes, everything just described me and how did they get it all in one place? the way that I felt.

Yeah. And it was funny because there were a lot of actually there are a lot of symptoms or indicators that I don't have. There's no like cookie cutter. But I struggle and I struggle and I'm still struggling.

Amy:
Hey everyone, welcome back to Rebelling. I'm Amy, and today we're talking about something that changes everything, getting a diagnosis. For a lot of us, especially those discovering your diagnosis later in life, it's a tectonic shift. Before my diagnosis, I had resigned myself to sort of suffering the indignity of just being misunderstood and lonely.


Years of blank stares and bored looks when I talked had sent me into my own head thinking I was bad at storytelling, bad at life, and that I just didn't get it.

And y'all, I didn't get it. I didn't get why other people didn't want to talk about really deep shit for a really long time. Normal life seemed so controlled and boring. I thought something was wrong with me. I pathologized myself and made it a me thing. My diagnosis actually made it a me thing. For Kelly Hambly, a talented storyteller,

who is pursuing diagnosis at 58, it's a me thing too. Kelly is already neurodivergent. She was diagnosed with dyslexia as a child and she thinks there's more to her story. She and I became friends when we found one another on the contact sheet from a workshop we both did in June 2024. We realized we had some unique things in common.

Both of us were seriously considering the long haul commitment of going back to school in our 50s to pursue advanced degrees. We're both sober, we're both writers, and we both had never felt like we fit in. So in true indie fashion, we leapt into friendship with both feet, going directly to the things that matter. We talked to each other out of going back to school in favor of self-education. We support each other's sobriety and recovery.

And we have held spaces of curiosity and care for the stamina it takes to pursue diagnosis in your 50s. I asked her if she'd be willing to share her experience and she said yes. Here's the rest of our conversation.

Amy: (05:24.856)
Have you experienced any imposter syndrome?

Kelly:
my whole life. No matter what, no matter what career, no matter, and I've had many, no matter what social situation, I don't feel like I belong. And I'm on the outside of myself looking and examining me. At the same time, I'm trying to assess what's happening around me and seeing that I don't, I don't fit. Even though other people don't think that.

Other people think I belong just fine, but I always have this feeling of I have to work extra hard to prove myself, to prove my worth, to prove my capability and my right to be in the space. I've always felt that way ever since I was a little kid.

Amy:
Did you feel that way, like when you read the characteristics and the things that could make you, point to neurodivergence and then thinking about those things, did you feel a sense of imposter syndrome in those things?

Kelly:
Oh yes, I still do. I'm about to embark on the assessment journey and I just going through like I was filling out the tests, the online tests that they want you to do before you have your first session, the psychological, the psychiatric eval. And I felt like, oh, you're just making all of this up. You're not, this isn't real. You're just trying to fit in here. You're just trying to find a reason why you're so broken.

and why you can't manage your life the way that you think you're supposed to. And this is just another possibility, but it's not who you are.

Amy:
my God, Kelly, that's so the same experience that I had, which was I'm trying to answer the questions and then is, wait, am I making up this answer or is this my actual answer now? wait, is this really me or not really me?

Kelly:
Yep, is this the mask talking or is this what's under the mask? I noticed at least a dozen times that I was answering through the compensation that I have created for myself my whole life, as opposed to what I really feel. And I'm like, I don't even know what I really feel. I just know I'm really uncomfortable in my own skin all the time.

Amy:
Yes, yes. And the idea that you're like making it up. Like, yeah, I'm just making this up so that I can do what? what would be the point? But I mean, same. Oh, I'm just doing this for, you know, I could never figure out why I would be making it up. But I really felt like I'm just making this up.

Kelly:
Yeah.


It's not really true.

You know, this whole story in my head that, you know, I'm just trying to be like all the other cool Gen X moms who are coming out as discovering that they're neurodivergent. And it's like, how about everybody is to some degree, like, like who's not?

Amy:
Well, and it's interesting because with something like that, that's what a lot of people said to me when I came out and told people I'm ADHD or I'm autistic. They're like, well, you know, I mean, isn't everybody. And I'm like, well, no, not to the degree that it takes to have a diagnosis. I think is the, is the key part. I haven't really talked this through with anybody, but.

It is one of the things that people say is everyone is. Again, I think it's not to the degree that it has such an effect on your life that it makes your life exponentially harder.

Kelly:
Yeah. Yep. And the reason I said that is because I feel like that's just an internalized story. Yes. From the culture that I have. Like I'm actually putting it on myself. Not even, it's not coming from somebody else saying, oh, everybody's a little, I'm doing that to myself.

Amy:
Internalized ableism is so freaking hard.

Kelly:
I mean, it's embarrassing. I'm actually like, my armpits are sweaty because I feel really embarrassed right now.

Amy:
Is it because I questioned what you said?

Kelly:
Mm-hmm, yeah.

Yeah, but not, yeah, I want to make it better. It's not even that, it's not even just that. It's like, it's like you, when you questioned it, you said the thing that is in my head that I couldn't say. Like I know that already. And yet I still was incapable of just not saying that.

Amy:
Mm-hmm.


Because being neurodivergent is learning about all of these things so that you can start to undo all of that stuff.


You're just starting the process and doing the paperwork and have the meeting set up. When you think about what you're hoping for from that, what is it?

Kelly:
Um, I was thinking about that a lot last night actually. First and foremost, clarity. Just like, just clarity of understanding how my brain works and how I want to understand better how not knowing that and not having language for that most of my life has necessitated my powering through things that...

were deeply painful and uncomfortable and had the effect of exhausting me. I want to then learn how to live more freely and still contribute the things that I want to contribute to the world because I feel like I can't right now. I feel like I'm just on this treadmill.

managing or I feel like I'm just in this constant state of triage with my life and

There's no joy in that.

Amy:
What if you don't get diagnosed? What do you do then?

Kelly:
Yeah, I don't know. That's... Good question.

Amy:
It makes me think too, Kelly, that like...

the outlier, the outsider feeling consistently outside of. And then it makes sense that we would also think that, well, this is true for other people, but not for me in a different scenario.


if that makes sense.

Kelly:
It does. Yeah, there's an exceptionalism and in a negative way, not like a positive one. Like, I'm so much better. It's like, I'm so much worse, which is just the same thing. Just the other side of that.

Amy:
Yeah. And of course I would be the only person that this doesn't work for or that, you know, has this happened to me because, my therapist used to say, you know, it was kind of like, because I think I'm special, but it totally tracks with, if you have felt outside of then naturally anything that might be true for

the group would automatically not be true for you.

Yeah, that's really interesting.

Kelly:
Yeah, that really, that feels illuminating.

Amy:
Because it's not, like you said, it's not in the way of specialness or I'm so great. It's just, of course it would be different for me.

Kelly:
Yeah. I really do have just this pit of dread that I'm going to be told, no, you don't. That's not what's going on with you.

Amy:
It makes me wonder about second opinions too.

Kelly:
Yeah, I mean, that's partly why I changed, decided to listen to my gut on this one for this one practitioner.

change because I had this feeling that I'm this that one was going to be like

Not helpful.

Amy:
Yeah.

Kelly:
So like if it is like a hardcore no and there's nothing after that, no like let's explore this instead, then I will seek another opinion because something's not right. Right.

Amy:
Right. And like also just our tendency to mask. And so how do you know in this assessment if you're not

answering like you should versus answering like you actually feel and do you even know how you actually feel?

Kelly:
That's the issue. That is really the issue. And I've really been aware of it in the last couple of months as I've been exploring all of this and thinking back to my last therapy sessions.

I'm really aware of how I answered.


so she would like me.

So she would think I was smart and like not smart, grounded. She would see me as grounded and as not necessarily needing help and like tapped into my intuition. she pointed it out towards the end. She's like, I do notice that when I ask you to talk about how you feel, you really talk around it. You can't identify your feelings.

very deeply. And I was like, what are you talking about? I'm a writer. Of course I can name them. He's like, yeah, from a distance you can, but.

People ask me about how I feel. If you were to ask me how I feel about this right now, I'd freeze. I would just like be all cold and sweaty and weird.

Amy:
My brain's like in several places right now.

because getting the wrong answer feels so.


scary.


in any of those situations.

Kelly:
Yep.


I don't know where the self is. I don't know how to access the self.

Amy:
Would you have wanted to be diagnosed as a child?

Kelly:
good question. I feel like, you know, the 70s and the early 80s.

It was so stigmatizing, if it was even an awareness at all. And I don't know that there was much help for us. I did go to occupational therapy when I was in school because I was diagnosed with dyslexia. And that was stigmatizing, being pulled out of class to go work with.

the counselor who I adored and I actually really loved our time together because it was the one time of day that someone was focused 1000 % on me and asked me about myself and listened. I can remember the way she smelled in the tiny little office and how I could walk into the room and be like, I am actually being cared for right now.

but got made fun of for having to leave the classroom, told I wasn't smart.

always pointing out, you know, like seeing the notes on the progress reports and stuff that, you know, that I was doing better because I did, I got better. I worked at it. It's just always the little notes about ways that it wasn't quite fitting in. And I don't know that having a diagnosis at that point would have done much for me, which, it's interesting because


That feeling in me drove me saying no to my son being diagnosed. Like his teachers, that was ADD at that point in the 90s. And they were like, he is severely ADD and he needs to be on Ritalin. And I was just like, hippie granola, crunchy girl. And she's like, man, no, that's not happening. you're just bored in your classroom. And like...

Which is true too, but he is definitely somewhere on the spectrum. I mean, he I talk about it all the time and I apologize to him, but that like my reticence about, my negative experience as a child just with dyslexia.


And at that point, there still wasn't any cultural acceptance of like that there is a spectrum and that most people fall into it somewhere and some people need help.

It was just a negative. It was just a negative. So, and my daughter too, she also is, and her father is, both of my kids' fathers are. So, yeah, I don't know if that answered the question.

Amy:
It's, I kind of feel the same way and it's interesting and a similar experience with both of my kids who are both multiply neurodivergent and I didn't want to give them that label.

My youngest is 16 now, and my oldest is 20. And so that would be, yeah, 15, 16 years ago. And I just didn't want them to have the label. I didn't want them to have to bear the weight of that at school because it was already hard enough for both of them. That I just didn't want another reason why school sucks.

Kelly:
Yep. Totally.

Amy:
Thank you. It's hard to talk about, isn't it?

Kelly:
It's really painful.

Amy:
Yeah, I feel that right now.

Kelly:
Yeah, interestingly, both kids are, I mean, they're adults now, one's 30, 32 and 21. And they both, I've talked to about, told them both that I'm getting, seeking a diagnosis and they're so supportive. And they're funny, they're like, you know, duh.


was like, yeah, but you didn't see me as a kid. I have put the lid on all of that, all of it, except for the chronic skin picking. It's like, yeah, it's really bad. But the humming and the grinding my teeth and the shaking my foot all the time, my leg under the table. I learned to control all of that when I was.

Pretty young.

Because I got in trouble if I did it.

Hmm.

in school and at home. What is wrong with you?

Amy:
Yes.

Kelly:
Yeah, all the time.

Yep, what is wrong with you?

all the time.

Amy:
like, I don't know, you tell me.

Kelly:
Like, or I can't have a conversation if there's music playing.

Amy:
Me neither. And I hate that when I go to someone's house and they've got the music on in the background just because and I'm like, uh-oh.

Kelly:
or while, or talking while the TV's on. So interesting.

Kelly:
I've only just become aware of the masks, like to really articulate it. That's not just gonna go away. It's gonna take a lot of painful practice.

Amy:
And it's so interesting to notice all the places where you are not your actual self.

Kelly:
It's in a lot of places. Yeah.

most of the places. This weekend, this weekend is Jawbone, which is the big poetry festival in Kent that happens every year. been going on for almost 50 years. And all of these amazing poets that I know are coming to town and

Since I stopped drinking, it's a very different scene for me. And I don't feel...


Like I'm part of the flow. It's literal. It's a literal flow of alcohol and words that happens for three days and three nights. And now with this new like framework inside of my head, just this is new awareness. I'm really curious how I'm going to show up and like how much of it I'm going to be able to participate in without needing to just be like, and I'm done and I'm going to go home and stare at the ceiling. Like, and will I allow myself that to tap out?

Or will I power through and be with everyone because then they're gonna be gone until next year and I won't see them again for another year. Will I take care of myself through this? I will by not drinking, of course, but.

Amy:
interesting.

Yeah, because what I thought of is like, well, I let myself tap out and then will you let yourself tap back in?

Yeah. Could it be? Could it be both instead of either or?

Yeah, take a rest and then go back, take a rest and then go back.

And it not feel like, well, if I leave and then come back, that's going to look weird. And then people are going to be like, where'd you go? Blah, blah.

Kelly:
Yeah. Well, meanwhile, like everybody does that. Why do I need to be the one holding the container for like, no one's asked me to. Nobody has asked me to do that. I just feel this responsibility somehow. Yeah. It's really weird.

That's like, it makes me think that it just gives you the ability to, like even considering diagnosis or offering it to yourself as part of who you are, gives you that ability to stop taking responsibility for everybody else.

Yeah.

and start taking responsibility for yourself.

Yeah, there's a real entanglement with codependency here.

Amy:
Yeah, which I am so curious about. Is it actual classic codependency or is it something else?

Kelly:
because of the masking. Yeah.

Amy:
Yeah.

Kelly:
I think I've got some classic in there.

Amy:
I mean, fair, same. I think you're right. I think it's, there's a lot of that masking in there. I want to look like I know what I'm doing and I don't want to stick out. And so I'm just not going to get perceived. And so it's not necessarily for the other person as much as it is for you.

Kelly:
Mm-hmm. Don't want to be perceived. Which is hilarious considering I wanted to be in theater. You're welcome. Thank you. And if there's nothing usable and you want me to do it again, I'd be happy to. Yeah. I know I was kind of...

Amy:
Thanks, Kelly.

Good, thank you.

You were absolutely wonderful. Alright, I'm gonna stop us now.

Okay.

Amy:
Many thanks to Kelly Hambly for her willingness to share her story and for her friendship. I love you. I'm incredibly grateful for everyone who is willing to talk about being neurodivergent in a time when that can feel everything from complex to unsafe. Telling our stories out loud helps us find each other. And when we find each other, we become a part of instead of apart from. Y'all diagnosis isn't a finish line. It's a doorway.

and every story that passes through it, like Kelly's, helps make room for the rest of us. Next time, I talked to another woman named Kelly, Kelly Shannon, about her diagnosis story. Kelly got diagnosed as autistic, ADHD, and gifted at the beginning of April of this year at age 28. I asked if she would be willing to share what it's like right after being diagnosed, and luckily she said yes too. See you on May 19th for that episode.

Amy:
Thanks for taking the time to listen to Rebelling. You can find resources and links from this episode in the show notes or at rebelling.me slash podcast. Thanks to everyone who supports this podcast. And if you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share rate and review. Next time we'll continue our conversation about neurodivergent life. Until then keep rebelling.