Rebelling

Amy Knott Parrish (00:45)
Hey, y'all. Welcome back to Rebelling. In another episode of the Social Security series, I sit down again with certified ADHD coach, Keltie MacLaren. Keltie emailed me after the first episode and told me how excited she was by the topic, that this is something she tries to tell her husband all the time. We're safe because of the people who love us, not because of our bank accounts.

So of course, I invited her to come back on and talk about it.

Keltie and I explore the illusion delusion of independence. We wonder, what does it really mean to be self-sufficient in a world where every choice, every comfort, and every achievement depends on countless unseen connections? From the Buddhist idea of interbeing to the social pressures that keep us exhausted and isolated,

We dig into how our cultural obsession with independence shapes our work, our money, and even our sense of self. We ask some big questions like, why do we valorize doing everything alone? How does that reinforce systems of power and privilege?

And what might life look like if we embraced interdependence instead? Honestly, openly, and without shame.

We talk about connection, vulnerability, and the truths that often get left out. Here's my conversation with Keltie.

Amy Knott Parrish (02:31)
So tell me about, tell me about, you said I've been kicking around the idea of the illusion of independence. And I want to hear more about what's been kicking around.

Keltie (02:48)
Yeah, ⁓ so...

I think part of it is coming from this Buddhist concept that I really like called interbeing, which kind of means that everything exists because everything else exists. nothing can exist without everything else that exists. And so I can't exist without you, Amy, and you can't exist without me, but it's also...

There's also obviously an environmental way to understand that too, we think about all the like everything on the planet, we need all of that to exist. So there's sort of

a deep interdependence and interconnection. Is that concept kind of making sense? Yeah.

Amy Knott Parrish (03:39)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've heard

of interbeing before and it totally makes sense.

Keltie (03:45)
Yeah,

it makes so much sense, but it's

quite in contrast to the way that we're socialized. ⁓ And I think the other thing that I'm thinking about around this myth of independence is around disability and neurodivergence. ⁓ Because

basically it's held up as a positive value in our culture to be independent. that's kind of the pinnacle, Is to be like, I did this all myself. I didn't need anyone else. kind of like, like a star, star athletes or performers or even like, ⁓ like those survival guys that go into the woods and like, you dropped a helicopter and they're like,

I can do everything by myself. It's really like this value. ⁓ But I think that that type of independence is always a temporary illusion that only the most privileged people can even have that, the delusion that they're independent at all. So we're all born hyperdependent. A baby couldn't an hour without

without without someone that they can depend on, right? ⁓ And then if we're lucky enough to grow old, again, we grow back into like dependence, physical dependence, right? But I think along the way, that kind of in between, when we're in our 20s through 60s, 70s, when we think we're the most independent.

It's still, there's still illusion there because everything we know to do for ourselves, we learn from someone else. ⁓ everything like we, have, you know, whatever foundations our parents set for us in terms of finance or education or whatever the case is, like someone else did that for us.

to like as we arrive into adulthood. And yeah, I think that's this thing where we valorize like this, and it's always like a guy that's like epitomizes interdependence. It's always like this dude and we look at that and we're like, wow, like so independent, that's so awesome. ⁓

Amy Knott Parrish (06:11)
Great.

Keltie (06:21)
And I guess we do kind of have that with women as well. it's just kind of like, we can have it all. We can keep it all together. We can spin all the plates and do it all ourselves, but it's always false because you're always relying on other people, whether you recognize it or not. And even, guess, going back to the Buddhist concept that I was talking about, about interbeing, sometimes I'd like to do these like thought experiments to get really deep with it. I'll be walking down the street and be like,

I didn't pave this road. I didn't pave this sidewalk. I didn't design this city. I don't have any of those like skills to do that. this is like the ground that I'm walking on is built by other people. The house that I live in is built by other people. ⁓ You know, the food that I'm eating grown by other people is like, you know, harvested by other people, brought to the store by other people. Like, and

Yeah, I, and, and that's just even thinking of other people. And then even if I'm thinking of my breathing, it's like the oxygen that I'm breathing in was breathed out by trees and other like, like plant type organisms. It's just, there's nothing that I do or interact with every day. That's like solely mine. And that doesn't mean that I don't like, I'm not an individual person. It's just that there's this really, if you look for it, the web is, is a lot.

thicker and more connected than I think we're cultured to think. So there's my long rant.

Amy Knott Parrish (07:59)
Well, I agree with you. And it's interesting because I do that too, where, you know, like I'll, I'll pick up a bunch of kale and be like, oh, here this is, this is in my refrigerator. And then take off the rubber. Somebody, this was put on here. This was gathered. It was put together. It was taken from the earth to a place to another place.

Keltie (08:17)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Knott Parrish (08:26)
even if I get it at the farmers market, there's still it was brought here by someone who was not me that I may not ever interact with. But I mean, this could be getting a little esoteric, but our, our essences are in contact with one another through the contact of this, this kale or this, you know, vessel or

Keltie (08:34)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Amy Knott Parrish (08:55)
common object that we have both touched that we may not see each other but our body prints do.

Keltie (09:08)
Yeah, our, our life, like my life going well, relies so much on other people just like caring and doing a good job of what they do. in so many fields, right? medical, construction, agriculture, education, all these things, Kind of, even if I've never met those people directly, they support my life. And if you want to go like beyond the human.

Amy Knott Parrish (09:17)
Yes.

Keltie (09:36)
you wouldn't have that kale without the earth, the soil, the sun. those essences are also like ⁓ the rain.

Amy Knott Parrish (09:48)
all of it, the wind, mean every everything, everything.

Keltie (09:49)
Yeah. Yeah.

Maybe some earthworms to like help the roots, you know, their essence supported them. Sure. Yeah.

Amy Knott Parrish (09:58)
Right, beetle, birds, all of it.

The way that we're talking about this reminds me of something that I talked with Jen in the episode before this, we were talking about the effect that we have on each other. And I think that ties in really well with the idea of interdependence versus independence and allowing.

Keltie (10:30)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Knott Parrish (10:34)
We were talking about allowing people to have an effect on you or to be affected by other people or to also let yourself affect other people.

but it's interesting to also think about naming that effect.

Keltie (10:54)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Knott Parrish (10:55)
but being conscious of it.

Keltie (10:58)
Right. Yeah, that's, ⁓ I think that's, that's real though. I think it kind of like our presence, our way of showing up. Like if we don't know the person who picked our kale, but we're still we still have some essence of them that makes it to us, then we, we can't know where our influence stops either. Right. ⁓ so.

just kind of important to take care.

Amy Knott Parrish (11:30)
Mm-hmm. It's almost like both and you have to recognize and then be willing to let go of control of that.

Keltie (11:44)
That's right. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can't, ⁓ you can't like pull those strings in the web. It's too complicated, but kind of have to appreciate they're there.

Amy Knott Parrish (11:58)
Do you think that that's something that independence tries to do is like pull those get specific?

Keltie (12:06)
that's interesting.

I think it like, I don't know if it pulls them, like I'm kind of getting more at tries to cut them or push them away, Or you can actually cut those threads, but maybe it's an individual kind of like pulling out of the, like trying to pull itself out of that web ⁓ or themselves out of that web, ⁓ like stretching on all the strings, kind of stretch away from that dependence and.

That's like a painful and unnecessary struggle, in my opinion.

Amy Knott Parrish (12:46)
Yeah.

Keltie (12:47)
Yeah.

Amy Knott Parrish (12:48)
you you instead of like relaxing into the web and trusting that yeah that you're held that being part of does not eliminate your individuality

Keltie (12:56)
that you're held.

Amy Knott Parrish (13:12)
they can both be true at the same time.

Keltie (13:17)
And I think to say that like your individuality like enriches the whole. Like you're, you're important.

Amy Knott Parrish (13:27)
Yes, it's something I say to people like clients to people to anybody really is like one one life. This is the only expression of you there will ever be ever ever. Never again. This combination shows up.

Keltie (13:29)
in

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Amy Knott Parrish (13:54)
but I never really broadened it out to us just sitting here right now, this is also unique. this is also, and so not only are we unique expressions, but everything is also in unique combination.

Keltie (14:04)
Mm-hmm.

like all these unique relationships, yeah.

Amy Knott Parrish (14:20)
And why do we try to make it so single minded?

Keltie (14:29)
That's a good question.

⁓

I think it's from wanting the illusion of control.

Amy Knott Parrish (14:43)
Yeah, I agree. I agree.

Keltie (14:47)
if you're not in this web, then you're just kind of like free to move wherever. Like you're kind of seeing the web more as like, like a trap and maybe web is not a good word because we, I do think of a spider's web like trapping, but, ⁓ like it's some, like maybe like a net is like a word, cause a net could like trap or a net could could hold and support

Amy Knott Parrish (15:14)
Mm-hmm.

Keltie (15:16)
You could think of yourself relaxing in this hammock, you know, that's built by this web, or you could think of it as being trapped. don't, yeah, I don't know.

Amy Knott Parrish (15:20)
Yeah.

Yeah,

I'll have to think about because what I think of is ⁓ like mushrooms, ⁓ my seal. What is it? Mycelium sort of like all of the just roots. Tangling all together.

Keltie (15:37)
Yes. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

That's right. Yeah. I think that's a a good metaphor. Yeah. Yeah. So there are these super long networks made of all these like separate, like individual organisms and the trees become part of the network and like all the plants and the mycelium and everything.

Amy Knott Parrish (16:09)
and it can trap you and support you. It can do both.

Keltie (16:14)
Yeah.

Amy Knott Parrish (16:16)
Like it doesn't have to be, ⁓ it's all support. No, I mean, sometimes it's not.

Keltie (16:25)
I think that's right, because I think we're talking about how people's positive intentions and energies travel through this web, but people wanting to cause harm also travels through that web, Both of those types of energies. And I'm personally one who thinks there's more good.

because how could we all still be here if there wasn't more good? But there is, there are, you can't be fully separate from someone else's harmful actions if you're gonna be in the web, right? You can't be separate from other people's suffering if you're gonna be in this web.

Amy Knott Parrish (17:11)
And you can't know that you might be doing something with the best of intention, but it still can be harmful.

Keltie (17:21)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I think that probably happens a lot. Like, ⁓ a lot of people causing harm think they're doing something good. Think they have a reason, right? Yeah.

Amy Knott Parrish (17:39)
Yeah, it relates to me. relates to, again, you try to boil everything down to a single, like, homogenized mind that only thinks of things in this one independent way.

Keltie (17:56)
Mm.

Amy Knott Parrish (17:59)
And so it's almost inconceivable that there would be other ways to think about it because this is the one good way.

Keltie (18:13)
I'm kind of getting like that, are you talking about like an individual or is it like the homogenizing force of culture that's trying to keep everybody into that one mind, like homogenized mind? ⁓

Amy Knott Parrish (18:30)
making independence, it's the paradox of independence being so alone, but also everyone has to be this way. So it's kind of...

Keltie (18:50)
Right. Yeah, isn't that interesting?

the same people that, ⁓ sort of put the, independence up on a pedestal are like, and everyone else needs to do it my way. Independently. Yeah. Yeah.

Amy Knott Parrish (19:08)
Yes.

Right, do what I've done by yourself.

Keltie (19:17)
Yep.

Amy Knott Parrish (19:19)
Isn't that

Keltie (19:21)
It's pretty wild.

Amy Knott Parrish (19:24)
I'm thinking back to your question, which is like it, which, is it? And I don't know if it, I don't know if any of these questions have a this or that. I don't know that many things actually have a this or that.

Keltie (19:36)
Yeah.

Amy Knott Parrish (19:40)
But it really weird that independence is also very uniform.

Keltie (19:55)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. So one of the lenses I was thinking about this through is like, ⁓ cause I, I'm an ADHD coach. and I encounter a lot of resistance to asking for help.

and I think that that is a type of masking, it's like trying to fit in with neurotypical norms that say you should be able to do this independently, but also in a very specific way that works for a neurotypical brain, but not your brain. So I think there's something like, it's interesting that you're making the connection between

independence, also normativity almost, or some idea that there's one norm that we should all aspire to. ⁓ Because I think that both of those show up, certainly in my life and in my clients, of like,

Yeah, just making things like making us like fighters like kind of being involved in this painful struggle where it's like Not only can I not ask for help, but I have to do it the way this other independent person is doing it That doesn't work for me and I can't even it's super it's impossible and I can't ask for help it's not right for me and I can't ask for help with it and I feel like with coaching where I want people to go it's Do what's right for you?

And ask for help and help other people because you can do that too. when you're in your right space, right way of operating, there are things you can offer as opposed to kind of pulling away from others, trying to copy what they do and being burnt out and having nothing left to offer, be you, do your way and you will

be able to be there more for others by doing that than by pretending not to meet anybody and that you can do things like a neurotypical way.

Amy Knott Parrish (22:04)
It exposes all of the places where this way of being in the world, this independent way, it just exposes all of the ways that it doesn't work.

Keltie (22:22)
Yeah, I think I was calling it an illusion, but I think it might be a delusion.

Amy Knott Parrish (22:30)
Yes. Yes. If you make... If you make...

a standard that isn't collectively meetable.

Keltie (22:46)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Knott Parrish (22:48)
but then you hold it up as like, this is what it means to be a good human.

Keltie (22:54)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Knott Parrish (22:56)
It is delusional.

Keltie (22:59)
Yeah, it's like no one can do it. Certainly no one can do it by themselves. And the way to succeed is to pretend you did it yourself and not acknowledge everything that supported you in doing it. Yeah, yes, yeah, that's right. Yeah.

Amy Knott Parrish (23:00)
period.

you have to hold up the lie.

You have to agree that that delusion, that independence is a viable way to be in the world. You have to hold up the lie that it isn't. You have to deny the truth so the system can keep functioning.

Keltie (23:42)
Mm-hmm.

That's right. Yeah.

Amy Knott Parrish (23:56)
Because what happens if you tell the truth?

Keltie (24:03)
Well, you lose your status if you're someone who's built all your status and.

power around that illusion of independence, then you would lose that. Like, I don't feel uncomfortable saying like, this is a delusion. Like, no one can live like this, because I kind of haven't built myself into that image. But I think if you're, if that's who you have identified yourself as, then... ⁓

If you say like, actually, this doesn't work for me or anyone else, then it's like, that's you stepping away from whatever power, privilege, status you've got from, from fitting into that mold.

Amy Knott Parrish (24:55)
That's right. That's right. And that's really...

Is that kind of what it's about is independence is actually a concentration of wealth and power. And if you subscribe to the delusion that being independent and doing everything yourself is actually possible, then you you're upholding, you can uphold that system.

Keltie (25:17)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Amy Knott Parrish (25:32)
that

is not actually real.

Keltie (25:39)
Yeah, and it reminds me of, think what you said before we started recording, which was like, or maybe it was after, but you said like people with $20 million. When you asked them if they have enough to say like, no, they need 20 % more because those are people that have subscribed to. And I think that is, I mean, this whole series you're doing is around money. And I think that's the primary delusion of money is that if you can just get enough.

then you'll be safe and you won't have to rely on someone else. And that's not true, so you can never get enough.

Amy Knott Parrish (26:16)
It's about building.

building security in ways that are not actually secure, but feel like they're under your own control.

Keltie (26:33)
Right.

Amy Knott Parrish (26:35)
or you're told if you try hard enough, then you'll be successful, you'll have enough money, you'll be, you know, able to do the things that you wanna do if you work hard enough.

Keltie (26:37)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Amy Knott Parrish (26:52)
And then if that doesn't happen, well, you just didn't work hard enough. See, this person made it. Why can't you?

Keltie (27:02)
That's right. Yeah, so it's like again about somebody upholding that lie.

Amy Knott Parrish (27:09)
one way to do things. it worked for this person, but the circumstances where we're operating are not the same.

Keltie (27:10)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and also like it worked for this person and you have no idea if that person's happy. ⁓

Amy Knott Parrish (27:29)
Fair. Yeah. Yeah.

Keltie (27:30)
Yeah

Because

to me, if you have $20 million and you think you don't have enough, you're not happy.

Amy Knott Parrish (27:40)
Yeah, what, what,

Where did you get your concept of enough or what I need? And is what's actually missing the interdependence that you need to feel connected to feel like life has meaning because it has meaning because you are actually connected.

Keltie (27:48)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

I think that's the big irony is we feel safe when we have good attachments to other people. And this myth of independence actually discourages finding safety there because that makes you too reliant and too dependent that you need to find all your safety just within yourself.

Amy Knott Parrish (28:22)
Well, what does that do for power?

Keltie (28:23)
But that's not human.

Amy Knott Parrish (28:27)
like if you if you if there's a belief that the way that you find safety and success is you do it by yourself then you get isolated and then you're on your own and if you're not making it it's your fault so then there's shame and so then you go in more

Keltie (28:38)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Amy Knott Parrish (28:50)
And then you're hiding, not being honest with the people around you. You're carrying the weight of the fact that you're not making it on your own and you end in in. then people are a lot easier to manipulate when you feel alone.

Keltie (29:03)
That's right.

Yeah, you feel you get self-focused, and not to be judgmental, but when you're struggling and you're ashamed, it's that's what happens. you're just thinking about your own struggle. You're not looking around to see who could help me, who could I help? How could we help each other? You're just, you can't, you can't even look at that because that would cause you to reveal your shame to connect with somebody else.

Amy Knott Parrish (29:43)
Mm-hmm. That would make you bad. So if you can't figure something out, you just, God, I just have to figure this out by myself instead of being curious and.

Keltie (29:46)
That's right. Yeah.

Amy Knott Parrish (30:04)
able to say like oh my gosh I don't know how to do this. Keltie do you know how to do this thing that I don't know how to do? Oh yeah I can help you. Why is it why is it a commentary on my personhood if I don't have all the answers?

Keltie (30:07)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that makes everybody so fragile, because nobody knows everything. And especially if you're supposed to like, come to that knowledge independently, whatever that means. you're not supposed to interact with, you're just supposed to self-generate everything you need from within, and then be judged when you don't know everything. It doesn't make any sense. Yeah.

Amy Knott Parrish (30:51)
at all. That's

why. It's one reason why I want to talk about this because

Okay, I'm just supposed to magically know all this stuff. And if I access the collective wisdom, that means that I should feel bad about that.

Keltie (31:07)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Knott Parrish (31:19)
What? That doesn't make any sense until you want to concentrate power into a place that keeps the majority of people away from each other because you don't want anybody to know that you don't know what you're doing.

Keltie (31:47)
Right. Yes, you stop asking questions. You stop challenging the way things are. stop like, yeah, recognizing that, ooh, like maybe you don't recognize that your problems are not individual, that they're actually systemic when you're not talking to your neighbors about how they have the exact same problems around like affordability or

Amy Knott Parrish (32:10)
Yes.

Keltie (32:17)
you know, whatever the case might be, because why would you talk about that if you were supposed to have everything figured out yourself? And then if you did talk about it and you realized like this system isn't working for everyone and everyone realized that then they want to change the system.

Amy Knott Parrish (32:34)
You wouldn't even, you would not

even buy into this system. We spend so much time upholding this system of independence.

Keltie (32:40)
That's right.

Mm-hmm.

Amy Knott Parrish (32:51)
But do we even really know why we're like, what is it doing for me if I'm independent?

Keltie (33:05)
making everything really hard.

⁓ and lonely, but it's also like there's this empty promise that you will get society's gold star if you can succeed independently, right? So there's sort of this.

you'll get recognition or

you'll get a stable job and enough money to be comfortable.

But that's kind of a false promise, but that's the way that we're taught to think to get those things.

Mm-hmm.

Amy Knott Parrish (33:51)
Convinced. Convinced that. And then, well no wonder we don't call bullshit because you spend your whole, if you spend your life feeding into this way of thinking, but here you are, know, oh, I did all the things I was supposed to do and here I am, I'm 40 years old and

I hate it. It didn't work. It's working for me, but I now I can't say that because I put my whole life and I guess I'm just missing it. So maybe I just need to try harder.

Keltie (34:21)
Yes!

That happens, I feel like that happens to everyone. That happened to me. I definitely like hit that wall where it was like, wait, I've done, hang on here. I did all the things that I was supposed to do and I've never been more miserable. Like, what is this? Yeah.

Amy Knott Parrish (34:52)
Will

you say more about that? That, ⁓ I just like, that just gave me a little full body chill of like, yeah, you actually do have this experience.

Keltie (35:04)
Yeah, I mean, ⁓

I was an architect for 10 years. so it's like, whatever social standards, it's like, that sounds like a really successful job. ⁓

I did this all with undiagnosed ADHD. And it was really hard and I couldn't figure out, like I was kind of doing it all under that sort of independent thinking where it's like, I just got to try harder, man. I just got to try harder. I've just got to like if I can read the right productivity book, I'm going to get this together.

⁓ if I can just, you know, learn the right method or the right trick, I'm going to get this. it's, and I just kept going with that until I really hit a wall. I was I'm not thriving, like mentally doing very poorly. I don't think I'm going to find as I'm climbing whatever ladder, the stress is just getting worse and worse and worse.

and I feel worse and worse and worse. I had money that was comfortable at that time, but I couldn't enjoy my time outside of work because I was so drained. So it's like, what is this for? It's like, I can go on a vacation for a week and barely start to feel better and still not feel fully myself by the end of the vacation, only to go back and do this again.

Amy Knott Parrish (36:51)
Mm-hmm.

Keltie (36:52)
⁓ so

Amy Knott Parrish (36:53)
A week behind, also.

Keltie (36:54)
yeah, exactly. Catch like catch up on a week's worth of work. ⁓ or I can buy myself, you know, nice clothes or whatever, but like, who cares when I just don't feel present in my own life when I'm just so drained. And so, ⁓ yeah. So I think that I did all that believing like I'm following the steps. I'm trying to get this right.

once I get it right, I'm going to reach a place, this promised land, where I'm financially comfortable, I have a job that people respect, and if I do this long enough, surely it's going to feel easier or something, I'm going to fall into rhythm with this. But that's not really what happens. It's like you start to get comfortable in one place, and then you get more responsibility, and then you get more responsibility. And ⁓ it just

Like there's like this, maybe it's a myth of arrival. Like if you just like, yeah, this sucks, but one day you're going to arrive somewhere that will make all that worth it. And I think I just realized that there was never going to be an arrival. it was just going to be more of this forever until maybe I retire. But then that was just too long. I thought about this, I started to come to this realization.

Amy Knott Parrish (38:08)
Yeah.

Keltie (38:18)
in my early thirties and by the time I was 35, I was like, my God, if I am waiting for retirement, that's 30 years from now. That's my whole lifetime again, just doing this. That's killing me basically. it was making me sick. ⁓ yeah. Already at like 35 and then thinking about, yeah, three more decades was not.

not a joke. I don't know. Is that, yeah. Does that answer your question around that?

Amy Knott Parrish (38:50)
Yeah.

It makes the point that you were doing everything you were supposed to do. You went to school, got a good degree, got a job that sounds successful that you...

Keltie (39:04)
Yeah.

Amy Knott Parrish (39:14)
worked and we're climbing the ladder and here's where here's where the rewards are pouring in but i don't feel rewarded i feel exhausted

Keltie (39:26)
Yeah.

Amy Knott Parrish (39:28)
And what I thought of two things while you were talking about that. One is that's the point.

The pretend point of independence is that it gives you this big sense of personal satisfaction. And when you don't sense that, it tells you you're not trying hard enough. So you drive yourself further into the ground, which is actually the point.

Keltie (40:01)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. that's such a good point. Yeah, like I was Talking about this reward or this arrival and you're right. It's like the the reward is supposed to be like you feel great and Meanwhile on the path so like quote unquote path to this reward if you listen to your body you'll notice you're feeling worse and worse and worse and worse and Yeah, and

getting sick and struggling with mental health and things just start falling apart. And you're like, how much further do I have to go down this road? 30 years?

Amy Knott Parrish (40:46)
Yeah, but I mean, guess, I mean, this is what you're supposed to do. And like, this is what everybody around me is doing. And people around you are upholding the idea that, yeah, if we just like climb that ladder, get successful, make money, buy a house.

Keltie (40:56)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. ⁓

Amy Knott Parrish (41:11)
all

of the the day to day the day day all the days that string together in that

We don't look at the quality of those days. We just feed the machine.

Keltie (41:33)
Oof. Yeah, that's chilling. Yeah, it's exactly it. With the promise. Yeah, with the promise that the machine's gonna like give us something back.

Amy Knott Parrish (41:39)
which is what the machine wants, right?

Yeah, it's what...

Keltie (41:47)
Which it,

yeah, which it will never do.

Amy Knott Parrish (41:50)
Right, because the machine is not gonna love you back.

Keltie (41:57)
Mm-mm.

Amy Knott Parrish (41:58)
because it's not, independence is not natural.

Keltie (42:07)
That's right. That's right. And it's making me just to go back to what you were saying before, it's making me think like you were saying, I'm in this situation looking around and being like, Oh, other people are doing this and they're holding it together and they're doing fine. But that's again, going back to like, if we actually talked truthfully to each other, then we'd know that actually a lot of people are not doing fine. I had, um,

an experience where I had to take, I had to take a burnout leave. I physically had to. I wasn't, I was, I should have taken one long before, but until I physically hit a wall, I was, I was never going to actually take the lead, that leave to care for myself, but my body forced me to. and I was so ashamed, but I eventually started talking to people and

So many people that I talked to in the same career path were like, oh, me too. And I was like, I know you. I've known you for a long time. I work with you every day. I didn't know that you had also taken a burnout leave.

Amy Knott Parrish (43:17)
Yeah.

Keltie (43:18)
And so I'm just like, everybody's taking burnout Leafs. that like, and we all just don't know it and we all feel ashamed when it's us that it happens to.

Amy Knott Parrish (43:28)
And then picturing sitting in the Zoom meeting with everybody's faces populated on the screen and someone saying, hi, I'm back. had to take burnout leave and watching.

Keltie (43:43)
Right.

Amy Knott Parrish (43:44)
the cringe of like, ⁓ God, you can't handle it? What's wrong with you?

rather than, oh God, yeah, this is crazy. why, why are we?

Keltie (44:02)
we all working like this that we have to all take burnout leaves?

Amy Knott Parrish (44:07)
I have clients who are fainting from stress during work.

Keltie (44:14)
It's wild.

Amy Knott Parrish (44:15)
It's incredible. And then just picking it back up with enthusiasm and like, just got to try harder. I just got to, I got to figure out how to manage my time better. And so the myth that independence makes it so it's always your problem.

Keltie (44:30)
Ohhhh ⁓

Yeah, yeah. When you said, I've just got to manage my time better, that's like a crazy one for me because I hear that all the time from clients, from people I care about in my life. And I'm like, do you have to manage your time better or is what's being asked of you with your finite amount of time and energy actually possible at all?

You're trying to solve this puzzle that maybe it's missing a few pieces. there's no actual solution to the puzzle, but you make yourself crazy trying to solve it and like being like, I just need to like, maybe if I do it this way, maybe if I wake up five minutes earlier, whatever, that's gonna yeah, it's totally, it totally goes back onto the individual again.

Amy Knott Parrish (45:31)
Yeah, nobody says, ⁓ well, look at the amount of work that everyone's doing. Is this feasible for human capacity? Is this actually possible to get done in a workday? Especially if you actually like during the workday, you're just in meetings and then the actual work that you have to do is like, ⁓ the five hours after you get off of work, then you're doing your

Keltie (45:42)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

That was my,

that was what led up to burnout for me.

Amy Knott Parrish (46:04)
And people enthusiastically say yes to this because it's now completely normal.

Keltie (46:15)
And it's like, if they can do it and they're fine, then why shouldn't I be able to do it?

Amy Knott Parrish (46:19)
Yeah, and if you can't, then something's wrong with you. Not, has anybody taken a look at our system?

Keltie (46:32)
Even, I mean, just to talk about systems, even the 40 hour work week, that was designed for factories. And that was I think, ⁓ feel like it was Henry Ford. I might be wrong about that, but it was a calculated profit loss thing where it's like, this is the number of hours where workers will stop, start to make too many mistakes on the assembly line. So let's stop before that, but that has nothing to do.

with most people's jobs nowadays, especially if it's office work or creative work or whatever, you're not doing that for eight hours a day. It's not, yeah. Anyway, so.

Amy Knott Parrish (47:12)
No.

Well, I've

along that I think I heard or read or I don't know, maybe I made it up. don't think so. But something about how they made the workweek so that there were the weekends so that you had time off so that you would want to buy stuff.

Keltie (47:40)
That checks out. I believe that.

Amy Knott Parrish (47:42)
Right? And

so you work all week to make the money that then you spend it all during the weekend and then you're beholden to your job. And so it's a cycle of work, spend, work, spend, work, spend.

Keltie (47:45)
Yeah.

Yes.

And I think there's a lie, also around that, when you're talking about the personal satisfaction that's supposed to arrive, like that, that being able to spend stuff on the weekends is what's going to give you that. Because when I was working like that, I had a much different relationship to money. where it was just like, ⁓ I need to buy this because I deserve it. ⁓ because I worked so hard for it and

now that I'm doing, now that I have a lot less money doing something I enjoy more and not, I'm not, like, depleted every day, it's like, I could spend money on some, like, on things, but it's not like I have to buy something that's gonna make me feel good because I feel so terrible. And, this is the prescription that I've been given, is to, like, buy nice new clothes and then you'll feel, and that that'll somehow, make you feel less wretched.

Amy Knott Parrish (48:51)
Yeah, I deserve it.

Keltie (48:53)
Yeah.

Amy Knott Parrish (48:55)
Yeah, I do all this suffering, so I deserve to spend my money on this nice thing, because that I'm going to reward myself. So the system isn't going to reward me. I'm going to reward myself.

Keltie (48:55)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. On something that ultimately doesn't work. So you need more. You need more. You can never get enough of something that doesn't work or that almost works. Right? Yeah.

Amy Knott Parrish (49:15)
Right. Well, because

That's right. That's right.

So what would it look like if it wasn't like that? so we're obviously independence is ridiculous. I think we can agree on that. What about interdependence? How would it be different? Do you think if interdependence was the system we operated in?

Keltie (49:53)
The word that just came to mind when you said that was like communication

Like just knowing each other better.

⁓

Yeah, I don't even know all of what I mean by communication right now, but it's like.

more honesty.

more authenticity. ⁓

more like deciding things collectively.

I don't know, what do you think?

Amy Knott Parrish (50:46)
I'm thinking about fluctuation being like just the way that it is so that that capacity we're not it's not assumed that we have the same capacity every day or all day even.

Keltie (50:50)
Mm.

Yeah.

⁓ wouldn't that be nice? Yeah.

Amy Knott Parrish (51:08)
so that there's room for variance and variety.

Keltie (51:14)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Knott Parrish (51:15)
⁓

and the commute with the communication and like being able to be direct and

ask for what you need without shame and also to receive without shame.

Keltie (51:40)
And to like, give that's in a way that's like pouring from a full cup. to give what's yours to give and not to just be giving because you think you should or, you know, because you feel insecure in the system. Yeah.

Amy Knott Parrish (51:59)
and not.

performing.

There's there would be so much if any, but there wouldn't be a need for performance because interdependence would not be based on morality. Are you the other thing I thought of that I didn't say a little bit ago was, you know, you're getting to your reward. It's very like, if you're a good

good person you get to heaven.

Keltie (52:41)
Mm-hmm. Yep, there's definitely that underpinning to our culture.

Amy Knott Parrish (52:48)
Mm-hmm where

You're gonna get to this reward that no one can see That no one can tell you about because we don't know what happens after you die Yeah, we're so instead of

Keltie (53:02)
We just gotta trust us, it's gonna be worth it.

Amy Knott Parrish (53:10)
interdependence where your reward arrives all the time because of the connection to each other, the planet, like, like interbeing existing in that space being affected and affecting.

Keltie (53:26)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Knott Parrish (53:36)
that's that's the the reward is not money or stuff it's relationship.

Keltie (53:46)
Yeah, and it's later, it's now.

Amy Knott Parrish (53:50)
Yes, which is which is why this whole idea of social security for me is about we create security socially with our connections.

those are the things that we actually can be influenced and be part of and shape that can love us back.

Keltie (54:24)
Yeah, and like, and it feels good. It feels good and right in our bodies in real time. It's not like we have to make our bodies and minds suffer in order to get it later. It just feels right the whole time. Yeah.

Amy Knott Parrish (54:40)
Yes, when

people, when there's a natural disaster or a disaster of some sort in a community, the first thing that happens is everybody drops all the, all of the shit and comes together, feeds each other, shelters each other, gives people clothing, drives them places.

Keltie (54:56)
Yes, yeah.

Amy Knott Parrish (55:06)
This is a huge, it's happening in Minneapolis right now where people are supporting their neighbors because what we have is each other.

Keltie (55:20)
And it's so natural, but it has to be taught out of us and conditioned out of us. But when our backs are really against the wall in a natural disaster, like, ⁓ there's human nature coming out again.

Amy Knott Parrish (55:26)
That's right.

Yeah,

but then you have to have, okay, then you have to have the institution and the, you know, the governmental, the agencies come in and kind of get back from each other. We've got it. We're taking care of helping everybody now. Stop connecting with each other.

Keltie (55:57)
Mm-hmm.

if we stay connected.

Amy Knott Parrish (56:08)
If we stay connected, we don't uphold.

the system that we're in.

because it becomes not about money as a resource, it becomes about community as a resource, which is not dependent on the stock market.

Keltie (56:44)
Yeah, and when that's the resource that you value the most is community, then.

then you can't be controlled.

Amy Knott Parrish (56:56)
That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Because you

you don't actually need to be.

Keltie (57:10)
Right, because you're in a community. you're in community. You're going to act in ways that support the community that's so vital to you.

Or like, you know, if you are causing harm, then it's really immediate, hey, stop doing that. You know, like it's kind of. Yeah.

Amy Knott Parrish (57:36)
The community takes care of itself.

Keltie (57:41)
Yeah.

Amy Knott Parrish (57:43)
and makes adaptations to for accountability. Not not based in shame or pathologizing people, but.

having the time and the patience to understand what's needed.

Keltie (58:13)
And thriving together, seeing yourselves as one unit. It's like, well, you know, we can't just be casting people out. We all need each other. How we make this work together.

Amy Knott Parrish (58:31)
Yeah, yes.

and it wouldn't be. ⁓

I don't mean it as some sort of version of utopia and everything is great now. Kumbaya everyone. Like not that at all. But when we are interdependent, we recognize what goes into.

Keltie (58:49)
No. No.

Amy Knott Parrish (59:10)
living and being in community and then it has a lot more meaning.

Keltie (59:18)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Knott Parrish (59:19)
life has meaning, it's not.

disposable.

Keltie (59:26)
And you wouldn't have arbitrary rules, like you need to be independent or whatever, because the kind of rules would emerge from like, rules would emerge from like, what do we need to like, thrive together? Like, what do we need to succeed collectively? Like it would actually like, when you say meaningful, it's like, it would be like, not always easy, but it would be what directly makes sense to the people involved,

Amy Knott Parrish (59:54)
Right. And it's also...

it evolves so it's not like we're like well this is the way we wrote it so this is the rule okay and now at this time things are different what do we need to shift or change so that the system continues to be healthy and that system includes the entire planet the universe all of it's like

Keltie (1:00:07)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Amy Knott Parrish (1:00:29)
all of the interbeing.

Keltie (1:00:31)
If we

saw nature as part of our community, like trees, soil, natural resources, these are all part of our community. Animals, know? Yeah. Everything, yeah.

Amy Knott Parrish (1:00:41)
yes yes yeah everything everything

you're you're working for the health of

the community, which includes everything because it's all connected.

Keltie (1:01:00)
and it's not separate from yourself. You're not telling yourself you're independent and you don't need any of this stuff or these people. So you can't disregard them. You can't disregard the environment. You can't disregard your neighbors when you abolish that myth of independence.

you can't unsee that actually, if you're harming someone in your community, you're harming yourself. If you're harming the environment, you're harming yourself.

Amy Knott Parrish (1:01:35)
Yes, you can't, independence is separation, interdependence is being interwoven together, being connected.

Keltie (1:01:49)
Yeah, and you'd want to take care of your community like the same way you'd take care of a garden because if you take care of it like it it gives you so much. Yeah. Yes, yeah.

Amy Knott Parrish (1:01:58)
Right, and you also give back to the garden. It

becomes, it's circulatory, it becomes a circulation of rather than a concentration up.

Keltie (1:02:12)
Mm-hmm.

That's right.

Amy Knott Parrish (1:02:18)
Yeah.

So we talked about a lot of stuff. Did we miss anything?

Keltie (1:02:25)
Mm-hmm.

I think we got to definitely the stuff that I was thinking about before and some new and interesting connections as well.

Amy Knott Parrish (1:02:41)
Yeah, this is why I like to do, ⁓ conversations like this, just without, I mean, I have some, have what you sent to me and then like a few notes, but I really like to do it just by talking and sort of sharing ideas back and forth because it is, it is an, it's an ongoing, which is another thing that I feel like interbeing.

embraces is that it's ongoing whereas independence is very pointed and like trying to get to a place whereas I feel like interdependence is on ongoing there's not an outcome there's not like here you've arrived right it's like we just are along together

Keltie (1:03:09)
Hmm.

Right.

Yes.

that's so cool.

That's right. Yeah.

Yeah.

Amy Knott Parrish (1:03:38)
always, like from before me to after me and beyond.

Keltie (1:03:39)
Yeah.

Yeah, generations before generations after. Yes, that's so I love that you made that connection. That's totally, totally right. So it's like not not only do we stop believing that we're independent, but we also at the same time, by extension, we stop believing that there's somewhere to get to. And we see that like now is where we are.

Amy Knott Parrish (1:04:09)
Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Keltie (1:04:14)
Yeah. Yes, yeah. That's what it's about. Yeah, living. Yeah, yeah.

Amy Knott Parrish (1:04:14)
you get to live.

today.

today

not later now

Keltie (1:04:26)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and like doing what makes sense today will be what makes sense for tomorrow.

Amy Knott Parrish (1:04:31)
Yeah.

naturally because you're actually living in the time that you're in, not in the past and not in the future.

Keltie (1:04:40)
Mm-hmm.

my gosh. Yes. Yes.

Amy Knott Parrish (1:04:54)
Yeah. All right, cool. Thank you so much. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. All right. I'm going to stop the recording.

Keltie (1:04:56)
That's a cool place end. Thanks Amy.

Amy Knott Parrish (1:05:09)
Thank you so much to Keltie MacLaren for joining me and for sharing her insights on independence, interdependence, and the webs that hold us all together. You can find her at www.adhd-embraced.com. I hope this conversation leaves you thinking about the ways we're connected and how leaning into that connection

can actually make life richer, less lonely, and more honest.