Rebelling

Amy Knott Parrish (00:48)
Hey y'all, welcome back to Rebelling. Today I'm talking again with Jen Andrew. Jen first joined me for the Myth of Knowing series, where we talked about healing, uncertainty, and what happens when we stop insisting on having the right answers. Since then, we've kept talking. We're real life friends, and this conversation is very much an extension of many others we've had over time.

Jen and I talk about the dynamics of relationships and connection a lot. The ways communication, boundaries, people pleasing and responsibility affect relationships. And the way our social narrative often emphasizes self-protection without giving us much guidance for repair, accountability, staying with discomfort or leaving when a relationship no longer feels safe.

We often wonder, what are relationships really asking of us and what are our responsibilities to each other?

In this episode, we talk about people pleasing as survival rather than generosity, about discomfort as an integral part of being in community, about the difference between harm and difficulty, about repair that is not rushed, and why not every story needs a villain. We also talk about how individualism, capitalism, and therapeutic language

can shape the ways we relate to one another, often without us realizing it.

Jen works in communications at a disability rights nonprofit and brings a background in philanthropy, libraries, peer support, healthcare, and school advocacy. She is AuDHD gifted, sober, a certified death doula, a self-described grief nerd, and lives with chronic illness. She is a newly certified herbalist and approaches healing as something relational, ecological, and ongoing.

This conversation is part of my reframe of social security. Not as monetary comfort or certainty, but as something that is truly social. A collective resilience built through curiosity, presence, honesty, and the willingness to be affected by the people and the world around you. Here's my conversation with Jen.

Speaker 1 (03:39)
So let's see, I'm really, just looking at what you said in your text about our responsibilities to each other. And so I'm interested. Why don't you just start us off with that and we'll see where we go. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:57)
I think sometime during the early pandemic, it'd be like early mid, I started noticing that a lot of the rhetoric online was very inward focused and very, here's how you recognize red flags and other people. And here's how you can have super strong boundaries and all really important. But it like half of the conversation because

personally, like on my own journey from more people pleasing behavior into, you know, a more grounded secure place to land. It was like, well, but what's my responsibility to other people? And how can I make sure that I'm showing up in a healthy way? And I only have myself as a reference, but realizing my

my boundaries weren't great and I was engaging in like people-pleasing behavior, I realized it wasn't from an altruistic place. Like when we over give or just when I over give and when in the past I was trying to be anticipatory of other people's needs without checking in, was this what they needed? Was this what they wanted? And then over giving and feeling resentful.

⁓ that didn't help anyone. It exhausted me. It wasn't what my friends and loved ones needed. So I really was hungry for, okay, how can I show up better? Then it sort of started that rabbit hole thing that those of us who are multiply neurodivergent do like, like where's the information, you know, I'm recognizing some ways that I could show up in a more healthy way, but it is all recognizing.

some negative aspects of other people's behavior and found that experience mirrored in my ⁓ dealings with autistic groups online. I'm not saying this phase is not important, like discovering your neurotype, realizing you've been trying to fit in a mold that you will never fit and then feeling some grief about the ways that ⁓

I abandoned my own boundaries and also some people took advantage of that. There was grief, there was anger that was necessary. But then I was like, okay, I recognize how society is set up for my brain. I'm trying to advocate for my needs. When is the part that we work on making things better for everyone? And it was like, I felt like I was dragging folks along into that reality. Obviously,

as someone who is white, middle-class, I have so much privilege. And I was like, I want to know how, how I can, again, show it better. And it felt like there just wasn't a lot of appetite for that. So I just started to think a lot about that. And then recently I've seen the shift. I've seen a lot of people now talk about how we've sort of forgotten to.

be responsible to other people how important it is to let yourself be inconvenienced sometimes. I have people that I love and I'm like, please trouble me. It's not like everything in my life is supposed to be completely comfy and I don't know, doesn't ask anything of me. And it's finding that balance. I mean, of course, again, going back to being an autistic person, I was super uncomfortable.

a lot of the time before I was diagnosed. And it was really vital that I put myself in more spaces where my nervous system could calm down and I knew what I needed. And now that I have that, I can stretch and I want to, because I think so much is lost when we sort of hunker down in our individual pods and decide no one's coming in and I'm going to be really super rigid with my boundaries.

And perhaps when you kind of swing one way, maybe you do need to swing the other. But again, it's just a personal desire to, okay, I'm ready to stretch. I'm ready to find a healthy way to be someone who shows up. You and I have talked about that. I want to be the friend who shows up. I want to be the friend to, if I tell you I'm going to do something, unless I'm experiencing some illness, which happens, ⁓ I'm going to be there. I'm going to, I'm going to try. Yeah.

That was what was percolating, I think, or what has been percolating for me.

Speaker 1 (08:50)
It made me think of a few things. One of them was people pleasing. I wonder about people pleasing as masking and how it's not like you were saying, it's not it's not actually about the other person. It's about you, but it does things for them.

But the motive isn't altruistic. It's protective. It's not, it's survival based. It's not relational.

Speaker 2 (09:31)
Right, right, because if I make you okay, then I'll feel okay. And that's how I survived, you know, as a small person, and that was great, go me. Like, I figured out how to be hypervigilant and make other people feel comfortable and feel responsible for other people's emotions. But as an adult, that doesn't serve me or anyone else, and it actually can be harmful.

Especially when I think I got in the habit of not checking in. Like, is this what you want? Do you want me to keep doing things, showing up, whatever it is? Sometimes the answer is no. Also being okay with people's no. Cause I think in the past I would feel a little bit undone by people not wanting what I was giving. And that also ends up feeling kind of like a burden on someone else. So.

It's been a journey and it's really uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable to talk about, I don't like the way I showed up there. But I think that's how we grow.

Speaker 1 (10:36)
It's interesting too because in thinking about creating social security if it almost seems like You're coming into a place of deeper honesty Where you're you're part of the relationship So it's not all about the other person and it's not all about you. It's a circulatory system

that gets fed by the people that are part of it.

Speaker 2 (11:13)
Yes. Yeah. Which, you know, this is why I'm an herbalist. And that's why I love plant medicine, because there's a synergy when you combine plants and then you have a whole plant interacting with a whole person. The plant has its own intelligence and all of that is not something you can isolate down to a specific constituent. Just like when

You and I talk about something, we have an idea, we come together, like it becomes something so much bigger than just a simple addition. And that's why I love plant medicine. And I think we don't talk enough about the magic that happens in a group, you know, the synergy between people. Yeah, people and we're part of nature, right? But it's, just like that conversation I would love to hear even more of.

I was listening to Cal Newport talk about productivity, but he's focusing on artists and what people need to do to get in their flow state. And one of the things he went over was how different writers and artists he researched would have friend groups or peer groups where they would bring an idea. I want to do this blue painting, da da. And someone else was like, have you thought of.

adding a little tangerine, like whatever it is. ⁓ but, but again, that fascinates me. And I feel like I want to talk more about that instead of go find your community as being another thing you have to do. Look what happens when you have a relationship with even just one person and you bring your burdens, but also your creative ideas or whatever it is to that person together, you make something.

so much better and you and I have talked about in our individualist culture, we just can't shake this idea of doing things by yourself as being some sort of status symbol, which makes no sense. And I know as someone who's mostly recovered, but still working on recovering from long COVID, I healed in community even when community had to be virtual.

And it is, it's always fascinates me how there are measurable improvements when I have spent fulfilling time with my friends, you know, not just for me, like doing things for them as I, as I could, you know, I spent a lot of time plus pounds, but still can still check in on somebody, write someone the letter, you know, whatever it is. I mean, I saw measurable improvement from that. That's something I wish.

was evident in our very challenging main healthcare system right now, just how important your communities are for healing, for physical healing. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:13)
because you have to have deliberate community and you also have to have the happenstance of community. And both of those things, the spontaneity and the purposefulness of connection, both of those things are really important to create.

What do want to say? I don't want to say it's almost like harmony. You know, so you can, you can feed your system in these ways that are surprising and also not surprising at all.

Speaker 2 (14:44)
Yeah.

Right, right. And it's, um, it has just made me feel a little worried about the way the direction the popular narrative had taken folks. And I think it's always important to name if somebody is harmful, if somebody is really harming you and has no inclination of showing up better, that's a different thing. Like what he should be in a relationship with somebody who's

hurting them. But this is more, can you be in a relationship with somebody who's hurting you and has no intention of changing? I mean, that's individual. Personally, no. I have too many, too many experiences with healthy people who at least acknowledge harm.

Speaker 1 (15:28)
But can you be?

Speaker 2 (15:50)
And I believe, you know, everyone's different, but I think if someone will absolutely not do anything to acknowledge harm or work on repair, that will drain me. I can only speak for myself. I am the kind of person that, you know, there's that saying like, fool me once, Shemani, or Shemani, you fool me twice. And I'm like, for me, it's like fool me 952 times.

Speaker 1 (16:06)
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (16:20)
Shame on me. So I have really only left a tiny number of relationships in my life, you know, because I am somebody who gives second, third, 500 chances. ⁓ But what I can say is like, I am never going to close the door permanently. Like people do change. And if I felt like someone came back and said, you know, I acknowledge the harm I've

done, I'm showing up differently. There's a good chance that I would let folks back in, but I would have to see it first.

Speaker 1 (16:57)
Well, it also makes me think about the sentence that popped into my head that is not being in relationship is also a way of being in relationship.

Speaker 2 (17:09)
Right, right. Like that Prentice Humphill quote about, what is it, is it boundaries or the distance at which I can love you and me? You know, like that, yeah, at the same time. And if someone...

Speaker 1 (17:22)
at the same time.

Speaker 2 (17:28)
If somebody has to be in such far proximity that you cannot communicate with each other at all, that's, it doesn't mean you don't love them anymore, but you are protecting your, I don't know, I don't want to say peace, but, but something about like your, your interior health, let's say. And that's just, that's just where I.

have landed, you know, but again, I do think that people can change and I am curious like it there have been a few times in the past where I thought, well, I wonder if I had named a little better. Some of the things that were hurtful would, would some things have changed, but

the instances where I finally had to walk away, hadn't named it over and over and over and over again, and somebody's not there yet. Like somebody's prioritizing their own sense of self and keeping themselves from discomfort. And they've decided that's more important than stretching for me or anyone. And that's a choice. Like, you know, I'm not that person. Maybe that makes sense for them. But yeah,

I feel comfortable not being in a relationship with people who are intentionally and persistently harmful.

Speaker 1 (18:57)
Well, it just makes me think about like... ⁓

compatibility and also how compatibility changes. I'm thinking about a couple of friendships that I ended that I don't need to go back to at this point. I mean, like you said, I won't close the door forever. And it makes me wonder.

Speaker 2 (19:21)
you

What?

Speaker 1 (19:29)
what it is that I was missing in that situation, how I was contributing to the pattern that was happening. The reason I say that is because when we were thinking about how to have this conversation and like,

Speaker 2 (19:33)
you

Speaker 1 (19:59)
It's a two-way street. And it seems like that we tend to have, you know, of course we all have our lenses and our points of view. And what I wonder is in that two-way street, like the vibe of a two-way street is like you give, I give, and it's fair and whatever. ⁓

Speaker 2 (20:01)
Right. ⁓

Speaker 1 (20:26)
But I don't know that you can have a system of fairness in a capitalist. I mean, we go, we won't get big, big, but, do know what I mean? Like when, when the energy of is this fair versus is the system getting what it needs and the, people that are in that system, et cetera.

Speaker 2 (20:34)
Well.

Yeah.

Right. Yeah, it does. And I think if we're talking about moving towards stretching and like tolerating discomfort, so you can be in community with people ⁓ who maybe don't always show up the way you want to, or even are harmful as long as there's a way for you to, you can interact with someone, you know, don't need to like throw them away and protect yourself.

It's just making that balance. If somebody, if an individual in the community is causing active and repeated harm, then you know, that's one thing. But if it's like somebody's kind of a pain in the neck, they just press your buttons or they're something about them is bringing up something that you have to work on. Then like tolerating that is good. I think, I mean, it helps us stretch and learning the difference. Not everybody who gets on your nerves is

which like sometimes it seems like, but some people are, it's holding both of those truths. Like sure, not everybody who's difficult or whatever it is, it needs you to like go no contact. But there are a small number, I think of people in the world who do intentionally, do actively harm people. And I think that that's another important

facet of this conversation. Does that make sense? And it doesn't mean that like, we need to make decisions about what happened to those individuals. But I think there's a way that you do harm by not holding people accountable to.

Speaker 1 (22:43)
And in the community, in the social, what I just thought of when you said that is what if you're not the person who is the one to hold them accountable, but that there still is accountability?

Speaker 2 (23:03)
Right, Like built into your system, right?

Speaker 1 (23:04)
because.

Because the person is part of the system and because the system is a community or a collective there can be something that maybe it's not my I'm not the right person to create understanding or get that that part of the system working, but it doesn't mean that that person doesn't get

something, whatever that might be.

Speaker 2 (23:40)
Yeah, yeah. I mean, when I imagine things, it's like, you know, we're talking about what are your responsibilities to one another? And what are we going to collectively decide if you're going to participate in our community? However, we're defining that. How do other people understand the expectations of what we're asking?

folks and can, is that something that they're interested in? Because folks have agency. it's like, I can't change anyone else nor would I want to, but I can articulate what my boundaries are or what I'm hoping to get out of something. Like, I'd like to give you this. Do you want it? You know, in return, you know, here's what I'm looking for. And does that sound like something that would work?

Speaker 1 (24:32)
And if it's not...

Speaker 2 (24:33)
And

if it's not, that's fine, you know? Right, right, right.

Speaker 1 (24:36)
Say it.

Because something else that I think about as in the two-way street is also that somebody can be part of your life and be like in the outer orbit. everybody doesn't have to be right up here.

Speaker 2 (24:58)
Exactly.

Yes. Yeah, that's an excellent point. And I've thought about that a lot. think part of healing for me has meant knowing who is in my innermost circle, who am I most vulnerable with and who ⁓ am I saving my time and energy for? Because there is you have a limited amount of those. then so like to your point, maybe somebody moves

a couple moves in a more of a distant circle, but you can ⁓ tolerate some more discomfort with somebody who's pushing your buttons or whatever they're doing. If you've got like that close, do you know what I mean? Like it just feels like these are all different components of being in community and tolerating discomfort. I know that there was a time in my life where it felt like it was all discomfort.

because I wasn't speaking up for myself or I wasn't in places that matched, know, whatever that meant. And so now it feels like healthy reciprocal relationships are my norm. Yeah. So sometimes if somebody dips in and out or I notice things, you know, either they're going through stuff or they really can't show up for me. It's like, that's okay. ⁓ It's interesting too, as I went through

a lot of healing. have, ⁓ there is a space where I can see a person who has like a kind of maladaptive coping strategy that hurts them and other people. And I watch how people, that they pull in people who are used to over giving, right? And you can see for those folks at this time,

That is kind of where they are and that's working for each in a way, you know, for each person. But ⁓ it's been so fascinating that that personality wants nothing to do with me at this point, because I'm not here for that. ⁓ not. don't. I can see that they have value. I can see that they have many good things that they do in the world. And yeah, they're like way outer orbit for me.

Speaker 1 (27:21)
Yeah, and that's the thing is like they can be, they can still be part of your, you know, landscape, but they just are not your next door. you don't have to.

the ability to be in community with many people.

not having to have them be the same as you or even your vibe like, the way I get along with people is this and the way that you do things is that. And so that doesn't work for me anymore actually. But that doesn't mean I can't be in relationship with you. It just means it's a different kind of relationship that I might've had with you five years ago.

Speaker 2 (28:12)
Yeah, I read, I think her name is Lovette Jallow, an autistic author, writes like stuff that challenges me all the time. And I love it. I'm like totally here for it. ⁓ Wrote something about like, sometimes we move away from friends because they remind us of a version of ourselves that we don't particularly like. And I was like, ⁓ yes, that's true. And, you know, be curious what would happen if you were like, yeah, I didn't really like that I was showing up.

like that, could we renegotiate how we interact with each other? And just be curious, like what, what might happen? What if you had a totally different relationship? Maybe it wouldn't work out anymore, you know, but ⁓ I just thought that was really interesting. And ⁓ I think we're both or you did read the book on repentance and repair. I, I

Speaker 1 (29:06)
I haven't read it yet. It's sitting right.

Speaker 2 (29:11)
thought it was so good because again, it brings me back to like, I want to know how to repair. You I want to know ⁓ how I can best show up after I've inevitably hurt someone, you know, and that book was really helpful. She talks about how in our culture, we put, I think it's this book, like we put so much emphasis on reconciliation and forgiveness.

But reconciliation and forgiveness require acknowledgement of harm and repair. Otherwise, it's reconciliation without repair leads to resentment. And I thought, yeah, and feelings of not being safe over time. And I thought, that's interesting. That's a different... I have seen some really heavy emphasis on...

just sort of forgetting about things, which I understand in some circumstances. But where I was going is like, you don't really give people a roadmap for after they have done something that they want to repair. There's just not a lot, I think, out there. Like, OK, I acknowledge that I want to show up differently. Like, how do I do that? What does that look like? Where's the scripts for all of those autistic folks out there?

and I, I, I, I had a therapist say to me once, I, this might be controversial, but that like everyone is capable of abuse. mean everyone's an abuser, but that like everyone actually can, can, engage in abusive behavior and that talking about how are we responsible to each other, recognizing that in ourselves instead of, and I know I've had a tendency to do this in the past, like,

this person is good, this person is bad. You know, not like this, like where you're talking about behavior, right? Sometimes it's just really pointing out behavior that hurts other people and that might be different depending on who you're talking to. ⁓ I know personally in the past when I've been really, really upset, I tend to shut down, you know, and for me, that's just me going back into some old.

coping mechanisms, but my growth has been like, have to speak up when that happens. Even if it's like, maybe I don't have as many words, but like some kind of gesture, but like, I love you, I need break. So that you're staying in relationship with someone. And again, that was hard for me because I was like, but I'm just keeping myself safe. Yeah, that's true. But I also was hurting other people. So.

I, I, something like is playing in my mind about like making it less or making it more normal to know how to repair, to know how to, ⁓ take ownership and apologize instead of, especially with like any kind of parenting role. Parenting is super hard. And in our capitalist, I think it's even harder now than when mine were little. ⁓ you're unfortunately going to hurt your kids.

because it's really hard sometimes to be exhausted and you got work pressure and school pressure and knowing how to listen to your kids and hold the hurt and acknowledge it and not get into your own guilt, but just be there for them. think that there's less instruction there. And I wish we could talk about that more.

⁓ Because I feel like the ⁓ expectations of especially mothers are so high and unrealistic. Like there's no other relationship where you would assume somebody would always show up perfectly. Like that seems silly, you know? But we almost expect that of mothers, I feel like.

Speaker 1 (33:24)
Yeah, and that pressure, I mean that pressure that is given, it's unspoken. It's not.

It makes me think about how with repair and with how we show up and with speaking up and be able to say, being able to say what's happening for me right now is blah, blah, blah. And I wonder I could be like veering away a bit, which is possible.

Speaker 2 (33:51)
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 (34:02)
But it makes me think about how we're so geared toward completion that it makes me think that communication and connection is actually, it's so much more complex, but because there's the idea of don't go to bed mad or you know, you don't know if this is the last time you're going to see this person and what if you didn't make it okay?

Can we, it kind of does circle back to something you were saying earlier, which is can people have an effect on me that I don't like? And can I live with that and let it be what's here without having to rush it to better?

Speaker 2 (34:43)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Right, right. Like, like sitting with discomfort because relationships are messy and people will get on your nerves. And we're, and we're all autonomous beings who are going through our own stuff. And, it's, it's not easy. it's messy trying to figure out what is, where can we give people grace with also making sure we're not being totally taken advantage of, right? But like, you know, trying to.

⁓ meet people where they are, give ourselves compassion, all of that. Because it's, again, like the benefits of being in relationship with folks are huge. ⁓ And I do, I just think we've heard so much about the importance of community without like a lot of detail about what does that look like? Like how does that exactly happen? Yeah, I am.

Speaker 1 (35:45)
And how do you not give me a prescriptive about...

Because to me, every situation is different. So it's not about a script. It's more about how do we learn how to sense what's happening in relationship so that we can speak for ourselves and then hear the other people speak for themselves. And then how do we put those systems together?

Speaker 2 (36:21)
Yes.

Speaker 1 (36:21)
And so maybe there is a repair that needs to happen, but it needs to take some time.

Speaker 2 (36:29)
Yeah, yeah, like, like that moving away from like the immediacy.

Speaker 1 (36:34)
Yeah, yeah

Is it... it's it's not about what you're supposed to say. It's how can you stay?

Speaker 2 (36:46)
Mm-mm. Mm-mm.

Speaker 1 (36:53)
How can you, even if it means you gotta, hey listen, I can't have this conversation with you anymore. I'm gonna have to go and take a break. I just need some space to think about what we talked about. And so, but we'll come back to it. It's saying, I don't know Jen, it's it's saying the things that we leave unsaid.

Speaker 2 (37:14)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Like trusting ourselves and the other person that we can both sit with the hard and stay with the uncomfortable because it's worth it. It's worth it to be in relationship and in community. And it's sort of like a false choice that if you stay isolated, you're safer. You're really not, you know, because I think on some sort of instinctual level, we know that.

being completely alone is not safe. It's really not because we need each other. And it's not just like, what am I not getting by being alone? But who am I not showing up for, you know, by sort of hunkering down, so to speak? ⁓ Yeah, it's sort of like that, you know, that quote, like the world means your medicine kind of thing. But it's true. mean, I do think like everybody I've ever met has something beautiful to give.

and, and yeah, like I think we've kind of, you know, not, don't necessarily think any one person's behind this, but, but I just know personally, sometimes I can see content that makes me feel like other people are scary, you know, like instead of just being like they're people trying to figure it out just like I am, like not always getting it right. Having grace, I think for other people, I,

Yeah, yeah, I think a lot about.

Speaker 1 (38:48)
Like coming from neutrality.

Speaker 2 (38:50)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 (38:53)
Say what you were gonna say.

Speaker 2 (38:55)
No, I was reading this, I printed it out because that's who I am and I have no Swiss cheese memory. But ⁓ it was like this woman, Gloria Alamro, wrote about healing is making us mean. And she has the sub-stack where she was saying how we're so like in our therapy speak and we have decided we don't want to be inconvenienced.

And let me see. She says, suddenly it became the consensus that you shouldn't ever, ever, ever, not even for one millisecond, be asked to go out of your way to do something for someone else because you already do so much for everyone all the time and no one ever does anything for you, right? Inconvenient somehow became a cardinal sin punishable by ghosting, or at the very least a post on Reddit. Am I the asshole?

And it's true. I mean, it's true. ⁓ yeah, and it's complicated. isn't, there's like, as you say, there's no one right answer. There's no one right path. There's so many things, so many truths to hold at the same time that, yeah, it's hard. It's messy.

Speaker 1 (40:13)
Every story doesn't need a villain.

Speaker 2 (40:16)
Right. Right.

Speaker 1 (40:19)
It's just not necessary.

Speaker 2 (40:22)
Yeah,

yeah, I agree. I agree.

Speaker 1 (40:28)
She said something, that was a good article, you sent it to me. She said something else about how like empathy or I'm so, ⁓ I'm just such an empath has become almost like a signal of.

Speaker 2 (40:50)
What it's like martyrdom. Like I just, feel like I'm so impacted and the implication that like everyone else is so, you know, used to be like people would say is unevolved or, know, but now it's like other people haven't done enough therapy or they have, they don't say the right thing or they're not thinking the right thing instead of just, it is very performative. ⁓ yeah. And so maybe we're thinking about.

Speaker 1 (41:12)
performative

Speaker 2 (41:20)
showing more tolerance for just like what you were saying, meeting people where they are, messiness. ⁓

Speaker 1 (41:32)
and like...

There's the, it's the undertone of judgment.

Speaker 2 (41:39)
Yes, yeah.

Speaker 1 (41:40)
It's the thing that's like, becomes, being in relationship becomes morality based.

Speaker 2 (41:50)
Yes. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (41:51)
rather

than rather than relationship based.

Speaker 2 (41:58)
Right, because people are so rigid and so ⁓ just wanting a lot of ⁓ empathy or whatever for their own struggles, but not necessarily assuming, and everyone's going through this. And again, holding that with, yes, some people are being intentionally mean and those people you don't have to hang out with.

You know, she also writes, there's no amount of internal work that will exempt you from hurt or misunderstanding or the occasional chaotic group chat spiral. You can't boundary yourself into a perfectly curated life. And to be honest, you shouldn't want to. People will still disappoint you. You'll still say the wrong thing sometimes. Your parents might never apologize the way you want them to.

your partner will trigger you, you'll trigger them back. It's called being alive.

Speaker 1 (42:57)
Yes, yes. Well, and that's kind of like...

It's almost like we set ourselves up in this very, like you said, curated life. And it starts to become what life owes me.

Speaker 2 (43:16)
Thank

Yes,

yes, exactly.

Speaker 1 (43:26)
that I'm not getting. But then I also think about why aren't you getting it?

Speaker 2 (43:34)
Right, right.

Speaker 1 (43:36)
And so again, the idea of the circulatory kind of thing. How do you, I don't know, how do you keep the system, these systems honest?

Speaker 2 (43:51)
Right.

Speaker 1 (43:53)
So it's not a curated life, it's just a life. It's like, okay, this is totally random, but it's like we don't fart in front of each other. Every single one of us farts and sometimes it smells terrible, but it...

Speaker 2 (43:56)
Right.

Because

we're alive and we have digestive systems. We eat weird shit. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Or like even today when I was going to talk to you, I had a moment where I was like, I should memorize everything I've been reading. And I'm like, why? There's no time in my life where I don't refer back to something I and you read voraciously. I cannot keep all of that in my brain. ⁓ but there is a sense, but I shouldn't let anyone know that, ⁓ you know, I need some.

Outside assistance sometimes. ⁓

Speaker 1 (44:41)
I'm an uncertain human.

Here's my notes on my iPad, just in case I need to refer back to something.

Speaker 2 (44:49)
Yeah.

And, and it's not that I, right. It's not you would judge me or anything like that, but I always have so much that I'm so excited to talk about that. like to have, I like to have it all around me. So I make sure we can talk about these fun things. Yeah. It's such a great topic in that, it really does bring to mind a lot of like, how can we incorporate these ideas into healing spaces? Cause you know, that's my

special interests. when I am talking to somebody in terms of plant medicine and herbalism, thinking about their relationships in their life and almost writing a prescription, which of course I can't do because I'm not a doctor. But like giving that suggestion, what are your relationships like? Can you find more community around you? Could you stretch a little bit? Might that help?

Speaker 1 (45:23)
you

Speaker 2 (45:46)
your healing and understanding that, you know, again, there's synergy with other people and that might be what folks are looking for and are missing, if that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (45:58)
Yes, it's like moving, I just wrote down moving in uncommon directions. ⁓ that healing is an ongoing conversation.

It's something that I know to you and to me too is really important, is being able to heal so that I can be in good relationship with other people.

but then also I don't know until I know.

Speaker 2 (46:39)
Right, right. for me, somebody with ⁓ chronic illness, it's like I need other people. I just do sometimes, you know, to make it through the world. ⁓ And so do, you know, many other disabled folks. so understanding, there are things about that that make certain relationships a little more challenging, a little messier, right?

And that's okay. And I think of the idea that a relationship or a community, we're not judging on a final performance. As you said, it's like an ongoing evolving thing. And I think I've tried to, as I can, as my health allows, stretch a little bit into places where things may not go.

perfectly, you know, there may be challenges, but I'm so happy to have had the experience, even if it was challenging. And I feel better for having gone out there into the world and done whatever, like when I just finished herb school and went to the in-person,

We did the clinical training and it was hard because I was tired and I needed to rest. mean, was COVID safe. was all outside. But I still at the end was so happy I went. It was such a lovely experience. My classmates were incredibly kind. And I think I really received some kind of healing from being in that space. And it's something I couldn't.

have gotten any other way. hopefully they felt reciprocated, like I participated the way I could and ⁓ was just so grateful to be shown such kindness and care. yeah, I am probably rambling a little bit, it was really meaningful because I really...

I was so on the fence, you know, I was like, I know I can't physically do what everyone's going to do. And I might slow people down and you know, I might need to sit a little more. And I mean, everyone was fine. Like everyone was lovely and so accommodating.

Speaker 1 (49:09)
If

someone said that to you, if you were someone different and then you came to that person, or let me see if I'm saying this right. Like if someone came to you and said, gosh, I don't know if I should go to this thing. I'm tired. I'm probably not going to be able to contribute as much as I'd like, but I still really want to go and.

You would be like, go, my gosh. Yes, of course, just do what you can. No one's gonna care.

Speaker 2 (49:45)
Right, right. And there was even a moment where we were taking each other's health history. And I was exhausted by this point. And I started feeling a little foggy. And I totally misunderstood the person I was talking to. And I got it wrong. And it was fine. Nothing happened. It was just like, ⁓ I was not at a place at that point where I could have a lot of new information. I got it wrong.

It turned out okay. Like it was a great learning experience because I realized ⁓ moving forward when I do intakes with people has to be in morning right now, you know, or have to make sure that I'm super well rested in a quiet place where I can really focus and think like none of that is negative. And that usually helps the other person, but I don't know if I would have gotten that message so strongly if I hadn't.

experienced the challenge of trying to talk to somebody like where it's noisy in the background and I was already exhausted in that kind of thing.

Speaker 1 (50:53)
It's interesting though, Jen, because what that makes me think of is what happens to me in my work, which is I'll say something and a client will say, no, that's not it at all. And I'm like, okay. Well, tell me what is it? It's, it's not like it, it's, it's the, it's the outcome based. It's the tr I got to get it right thing, but you actually, it's all just information.

Speaker 2 (51:07)
Right, right.

Speaker 1 (51:21)
whether you get it right or get it wrong. It's just information. Yeah, it's not like a a judgment of your, you're a bad person because this person told you this stuff.

Speaker 2 (51:35)
And I was like, I didn't hear right. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (51:39)
Yeah,

it's just ⁓ here's me. I'm human and I'm showing up and you were honest with me and told me that I got it wrong. now, OK, so tell me what I missed. I can do better.

Speaker 2 (51:52)
Yes. Yeah.

Right, right, and just having like a tolerance for getting it wrong sometimes. Lots of times. And being okay with that. Yep. ⁓

Speaker 1 (52:06)
because each every interaction is not a report card.

Speaker 2 (52:13)
And I wonder how much some of that was masking, feeling like I had to be the good girl who got everything right, A's in class, blah, blah, blah, ⁓ as a way to defend against feeling wrong, feeling out of place, feeling a lack of belonging. It's like, well, if I'm always right, then I'll be okay. Then I'll be safe. When actually never showing any, ⁓ not weakness, but just...

uh, humanness is off putting. no, no, right. Right. I want to be around people who are vulnerable and they get things wrong and human because then we can talk about it and grow together. Um, but I think for a long time, I was somebody who just didn't trust myself or maybe others enough to like, just show up as my messy self.

Speaker 1 (52:46)
be around people.

Well, and it's interesting because I think, I think about this a lot. Who, who do we root for? Who do we feel the most connected to? If you're watching a race, is it the person who does it perfectly and finishes in first and it's just like, go me. Or do we feel the deep connection to the person who's like dying?

I'm trying, I'm trying, I'm trying. That's the person that everybody runs towards and is like, you can do it you've got it

Speaker 2 (53:50)
And it's authentic and vulnerable, know, which we're all, I know we've all been so hungry for. Yes. when we're seeing these curated lives and all of that, it's like, just need to let that go because no one can actually do that.

Speaker 1 (54:06)
that.

No one's doing it and can do life in front of each other instead of performing life in front of each other.

Speaker 2 (54:08)
What are you

That's so good. Yeah. Yeah. Which gets us back to like tolerating discomfort. And that's part of moving away from our curated existence. It's tolerating discomfort and finding ways to ⁓ figure out how to do more things in community. I think I sent you to that other article, Dining Halls Now, that one of my herbal instructors sent about like...

Speaker 1 (54:44)
me

that one.

Speaker 2 (54:45)
Yeah, yeah. I mean, he talks about the individualization of food and how imagine if we had more communal meals in our neighborhoods and our. No, this is Dave Meesters. He was one of my teachers. I'm sure there's lots of people talking about it, ⁓ But just the idea of sometimes I'm really tired of cooking. It would be nice if someone else would cook and think about the fun times either in a.

Speaker 1 (54:55)
Adam Wilson

Speaker 2 (55:13)
college or other kind of dining hall where you just show up and get food and gather with your friends or high school. And how nice it would be if I cook Mondays and someone down the street cooks Tuesdays and he talks about an apartment building with 30 separate kitchens. It's- Bananas. Bananas. And it's just another instance where capitalism has-

infiltrated and really robbed us of that community and each other. And each other. Yeah. wish when, yeah, I've often thought about like after hearing some of that rhetoric, gosh, I wish I'd thought to do that when my kids were little, you know, I'm sure there's people in my neighborhood right now who are lonely. I'm trying and like I'm actively talking to people and trying to figure out.

Speaker 1 (55:52)
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (56:14)
can I invite, you know, and, and what if it's uncomfortable? You know, what if they're not my people? Right? Like, how can I still? There, I think it's called the white pages. I want to say his name is Garrett Bucks, but I could be making that up. But I went to his barn raisers. And he, know, he talks a lot about building community with like, people around you and how

you know, one woman was like, I keep hosting this thing and nobody's showing up yet. And he's like, just keep, just keep doing it. Cause eventually they will. and just some like common pitfalls. And I just thought, this is so helpful because it's, it's not, you know, scripting, it is like, here are some things that you might encounter. Like here's something, here's some ways you might approach some of the discomfort or whatever it is.

Speaker 1 (57:07)
Yeah, it's ideas about what you can do, but it doesn't tell you I don't know because I'd love to be told how to do stuff

Speaker 2 (57:16)
Yes, I mean, like some instructions.

Speaker 1 (57:19)
Yes, but at the same time, if you get over instructed, then you stop trusting yourself to create an experience.

Speaker 2 (57:30)
Yes, yeah, yeah. And ⁓ I like a script too, but I also find that when I have a script going into any kind of situation, ⁓ it never goes the way I think it will. And I miss so much. I miss so much opportunity to really be in conversation with somebody. Right, right, because I'm thinking about, ⁓ I'm supposed to say this next.

Speaker 1 (57:52)
Yeah, because you're not present.

Speaker 2 (57:59)
supposed to according to who. Right? You know, people will hear me or us and either they'll relate or they won't or they'll find something helpful or they won't and it's all fine.

Speaker 1 (58:11)
I'm curious how you think the discomfort relates to the idea of social security.

Speaker 2 (58:20)
You mean like learning to tolerate it or?

Speaker 1 (58:23)
Just what role you think discomfort has in creating my idea of social security, which is like building a sense of security through community

Speaker 2 (58:35)
For me, think personally it is definitely tolerating more because my, again, some of my coping mechanisms, I had one trick, right? And it was moving back and pushing people away and building a strong wall and thinking about, can I name what's going on in the moment in service to that?

you know, building community and your idea of social security and like showing up for people in my neighborhood, even though they're very, different from me and like, what does that look like?

Speaker 1 (59:13)
You just said it. You said it. Naming it.

It's because I think that we tolerate it, but tolerating it is internal.

Speaker 2 (59:25)
Right, right, right. So it's like letting other people in on that experience, right? Yes.

Speaker 1 (59:34)
Yes. Yes.

Speaker 2 (59:36)
Yeah, and the same thing with the supposed to. I used to start thinking there was something wrong with me if people were a little hot and cold. Like maybe I have a friend in a more outer circle who sort of dips in and out of my life. ⁓ And now it's like, ⁓ you have returned. Great.

Awesome. Like I'd love to hear what's going on and I don't need them to be any different than who they are. You know, and it's like, it's, it's nice to just be in a place where I can welcome people in whatever way they can show up again, because I've worked really hard to find, ⁓ people who are interested in having a reciprocal relationship with me. Yes. People who are already.

ready for it without me having to change or try to make them change somehow just like we're already here. We're already good. ⁓ We're kind of like moving the same direction. I don't know if that makes it so like, but I wonder your circle to right.

Speaker 1 (1:00:47)
I I'm gonna push on you a little bit if that's okay. I wonder what it would be like for you to, because we were just talking about naming it, if a person fades out. And I think we've talked about this, but then if you named, hey, for me, you feel far away. I just wondered if we could be.

Speaker 2 (1:00:50)
Of course.

Right, right.

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (1:01:16)
So that they can say, actually, I don't have the bandwidth right now, which is why I pulled back.

Speaker 2 (1:01:20)
Right, right. And can I hold that? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I have had that conversation with, you know, a good friend that I was like, you feel quiet and like when I don't hear from you.

Speaker 1 (1:01:34)
But but okay stop right there. Yeah, yeah, feel quiet. So what if you had said what you were feeling instead?

Speaker 2 (1:01:42)
Yeah, no, I did. was just like, when, when, ⁓ when I don't hear from you in a while, I get curious about what's going on for you. And I understand that that's my stuff, like, we talk about it? And we did, you know, we had a great conversation. And I don't know that ⁓ I would have felt comfortable doing that, five or 10 years ago, you know, and it really deepened our relationship, not because

my saying something is going to change someone else. But because the saying it is really so important for me, right? It's hard because it's vulnerable and it's, I'm used to keeping myself small and asking for small things or like, no, I'm okay, whatever, you know, everything's fine, even when it's not. ⁓ and so naming things is scary. That's really scary for me. Maybe, you know, I, I have

friends who who, and family who seem like they're a lot more comfortable asking for more. And I'm like, that's amazing. Like, that's great. I love, I love that bravery to ask for more than you think you might get. And really like, why not? You know? ⁓ and I read something directed at neurodivergent folks. That's like, you know, a lot of you probably only ask for

Speaker 1 (1:03:00)
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (1:03:09)
what you think you're definitely going to get. And her challenge was like, if you're not hearing no 50 % of the time, you're not, you know, you're not stretching. You're not asking for nearly enough. I was like, wow. Yeah. Like what happened? so people say no, you know, but also you're depriving other people of being able to show up for you in certain ways. If you don't ask.

Speaker 1 (1:03:33)
Yes, yes. Something I talked to, ⁓ also talk to clients about who were like, ⁓ I just love to help people. And I'm like, what's it like when you receive help?

Speaker 2 (1:03:42)
Okay, well.

That's a tell, yeah.

Speaker 1 (1:03:47)
Okay, well, maybe

you're not as good at help as you because you're good at giving it. But if you aren't receiving it, then you're not, you're not holding up the bridge with you know, the arch is strong in two ways, but

Speaker 2 (1:03:51)
think.

Because think about how good it feels to be able to give somebody something that they want or need. Let them do that for you too. It feels good. It feels good to be able to show up for somebody like that. And if you never ask, you're really kind of missing that depth, I think, of what relationships could be.

Speaker 1 (1:04:27)
Yes, yes, because it's just, it's fascinating to me because it's, it's, it's being able to name that not, not only do you need me, but I need you.

Speaker 2 (1:04:42)
Yes. And that, I don't know about you, but to me, like there have been times where that feels scary. Because it's like, I do need people, you know, and, and I am much better when I'm in relationship with, I mean, I actually like a lot of connections. I really like people a lot. ⁓ And I feel like my

table can always grow. Like, I feel like there's always another place. Like, come on, you know, I, I'm sure I have a limited amount of time, but I am open to more relationships. ⁓ It's a nice place to be. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (1:05:24)
Yeah, and I wonder if it becomes less about performing and just being present. If the energy that it takes to be in relationship is different.

Speaker 2 (1:05:39)
It's yes, because it's because it's more reciprocal. That's right. Because yeah, and you can't be in a reciprocal relationship if you don't admit that you need anything. So it's like there's so many pieces that have to be in place. But you know, it's totally worth it. And I think it will help us move towards the community, the society we want is building these things because you know, someone who

My day job is working in disability rights and advocacy. ⁓ Things are really hard and probably not getting better. know, healthcare is in a really, really bad place. And so I think a lot about it's important to witness and name what's going on. It's important to try to hold things, hold the line where we can, and we have to build.

something different. Like we have to. The old world is crumbling around us and we have to work towards change and be the change we want to see and all of that, you know, it's just vital, important. it's, it does require tolerance for discomfort. It really does, but it's so worth it.

Speaker 1 (1:07:02)
Yeah, and it's, it's just interesting how, thinking about how we can change the way, like one of the reasons I wanted to do this social security series is because how can we think about making things better without money being the thing that we throw at it?

to make it better, but can we use ourselves as a resource for each other? Because that resource regenerates.

Speaker 2 (1:07:43)
Yes, yeah, and moving out of that system of like placing monetary value on everything and extracting from people and isolating people and taking parts of things and seeing things in a really rigid linear way. ⁓ Yeah, moving towards something more relational and more ⁓ appreciative of

the value of that synergy between people we were talking about.

Speaker 1 (1:08:15)
Yes, yeah, because it's not about what you deserve or what you've earned, but it's that you are part of.

Speaker 2 (1:08:25)
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (1:08:28)
And it can be a different conversation for different people. it doesn't have to be a quid pro quo.

Speaker 2 (1:08:36)
Right? Definitely, definitely not.

Speaker 1 (1:08:39)
And that there's freedom to be needier and freedom to need less and neither of those things qualify you.

Speaker 2 (1:08:50)
Sure, right, right. I, on that barn raiser, I guess it was a webinar, there was somebody talking about how they were having a hard time finding community that welcomed small children, because they felt like they didn't want to impose and, know, and they're exhausted and it's hard to build community. have such small kids and I was like, man, I wish you lived closer. Like, I love.

I used to to be a children's librarian. I love small children. I wish you were on the street so that I couldn't spell you, right? I'm over at five or six in the evening. My gosh, a fresh person to show up and like some energy and like mother that whole family or you just provide some love and care. So I have really been percolating on, on how to show up in that way.

Speaker 1 (1:09:45)
Yeah, and fight me in to see you at your worst. Because I can show up in that situation and you don't have anything to be ashamed of. I'm actually a person who can help you meet a need that you don't have to have money to pay me. I'm just going to show up for you because you're a human and I'm a human.

Speaker 2 (1:10:02)
Right.

And it's not me being magnanimous or coming into save something. It's like, actually, I would love, you know, that, that baby energy, that toddler energy, it fills me up too. ⁓ Yeah, yeah. So kind of recognizing what, how we can, again, reciprocal, even if someone's in a season of their life where they may be the person who needs more.

Speaker 1 (1:10:21)
Yes.

Speaker 2 (1:10:35)
but recognizing even just by existing, you have value, right? Like, yes.

Speaker 1 (1:10:41)
Yeah. Yes. Yes. Because you have social security. That's the whole purpose behind all of it. All right. We've been talking for an hour and 10 minutes and my brain is starting to do the record skip. So I'm going to stop the recording. Thank you so much for digging into this topic and being willing to

Speaker 2 (1:10:46)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 (1:11:11)
follow it along wherever we meandered today.

Speaker 2 (1:11:15)
I love meandering ⁓

Speaker 1 (1:11:19)
And

this for me is not a complete conversation. this is this this this what we're talking about is something that's being made and is always being made. so getting to a neat bow at the end for me.

Speaker 2 (1:11:38)
This is just a conversation. It's just the beginning. that's so I feel I'm so grateful you named that because even as we were talking, I'm thinking, what if somebody is listening to this with this life experience and maybe it won't land in this like, I hope whoever's listening, this is just the beginning. And there are so many more voices that are needed and experiences that can really, just keep adding to it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (1:12:01)
Yes, yes. And the purpose, you know, the reason I don't try to get us to a point, but still have a little bit of structure is because I'm just curious about what we are just two people having this conversation, but where does it land for someone else? What, what idea comes into their head that they then build into what we've started talking about? Right. And then how does that make a

another idea of something else. And then we just keep being alive.

Speaker 2 (1:12:36)
Yes. Yeah. And that synergy and that you know, greater than the whatever parts it does the sum is greater. It's yeah, it's it's just again, like synergy is just that word I keep coming back to.

Speaker 1 (1:12:50)
Yeah,

yeah. Okay, I'm gonna stop the recording.

Speaker 2 (1:12:53)
Thank you so much.