Rebelling

Kelly (02:17)
there's so much that I'm like, God, I didn't have the time to really focus on or find satisfying just because it wasn't presented to me as an option. And I love following the rules. it's like, you know, even now something like, okay, I'm gonna spend

a long time hyper fixating on a puzzle really just zoom into that like monotropic kind of focus is, you know, I think it's, it's kind of fun to play around in discovering my identity being like, ⁓ I can kind of reclaim and embody.

these things now that I never got to. And it's it's very exciting. think.

Amy Parrish (03:00)
That's so

interesting because like, I mean, I can remember getting lost in stuff I would like be outside and just all of a sudden, I wouldn't is it morning? Is it night? I don't even know what's happening.

Kelly (03:07)
Yeah

Yeah, yeah.

Amy Parrish (03:17)
But I also wonder about as you try to reclaim that part of you as a grownup, how hard it is to set that part of you free again.

Kelly (03:29)
Yeah, it's tough. like, I'm trying to figure it out right now. I've had to essentially negotiate with myself and be like, okay, I am going to put this part of myself first. Like it is non negotiable. And so if you kind of start with thinking about like, okay, making space for

you you could say my inner child, you could say the little like, AuDHDer in me. ⁓ It's like, that is non-negotiable. Everything else needs to be built around that time. at least like, having a chunk in my day that I can really dedicate to focusing on that. And obviously, it's easier said than done. And you know, there's

things to be tended to, which is the unfortunate part of being an adult. ⁓ I'm also a young adult with no children. ⁓ So that adds another layer of I am able to have certain parts of my day free to tend to this kind of thing. I'm the kind of person that finds it really difficult to like permission myself to take breaks and not give, I mean,

the literal version of 100 % all the time. And so you know, being in burnout for such a long period of time, and it really coming to this inflection point, I would say this year, it's like, well, this I don't really have a choice now. And I think if my body hadn't collapsed, I don't think I would have ever really accessed that part of myself, which is

kind of sad, but also like makes me really grateful of the ways in which my body has refused to cooperate with the way that I was living, you know, because it was like, okay, I have to restructure the way that I'm working. I physically cannot keep going on being this way. ⁓ So that's like the beautiful thing about the body's refusal is it's like, you know, your mind will just keep.

Amy Parrish (05:22)
Yeah.

Kelly (05:38)
plowing on and being like, well, maybe I can squeeze every single one of these aspects in. And it unfortunately doesn't work that way. It requires a lot of sacrifice, which is really painful.

Amy Parrish (05:50)
so now that you know, does it change the way that you think about burnout?

Kelly (06:02)
Yeah, I mean, for sure. I think.

I mean, I'm even just like at the beginning of my journey.

I think autistic burnout is a completely different way of looking at even just the concept of burnout because it's all encompassing. it's your entire life. burnout, we typically think like occupational burnout. So what we do for our job, for our career, and certainly that's a big part of it.

you know, typically the solution or solution quote unquote, to, you know, that kind of burnout is starting to maybe scale back work a little bit. But that's usually temporary, right? And then you are expected to kind of rejoin in the same way. Like, it's always kind of a temporary fix. And I've been doing that for, I mean, at least a year, I've been kind of

retreating, I would have some sort of mental health collapse where I would just like not, I would get extremely emotional or my body would get sick or I would just push myself to the brink and I wouldn't be able to work. And so I would take my time and it would never feel like enough, but like, I felt like it had to be because like that's, I was like, I'm taking too much time, which

You know, I don't know if it was too much or too little. I still don't. And so that was kind of the paradigm that I was working with is like this work type burnout where you're supposed to take your little retreat and then you come back and you have your self care coping strategies and you're fine. it got to the point where I was like, I am doing so much. I am in therapy. I have a great partner.

I take care of my body. do self-reflection and journaling practices. I'm on medication. Like I'm really giving my all. I'm trying my best to take breaks in a way that works for me. And I even tried like, here's another thing that is the assumption about burnout that I think particularly with the AuDHD brain, like doesn't make sense. So,

Amy Parrish (08:07)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly (08:18)
A lot of the messages that I would be getting from people, when I was burnt out was like, you have to stop pushing yourself so hard. ⁓ Yeah. just like slamming into the wall. And I was so critical of myself. I really got into this like spiral of self-hatred because I was like, God, why can't I like, I need to be less intense in the way that I am doing things because I would, you know,

I mean, obviously there are instances where it's like, okay, yeah, I should be more careful. Like I do aerial as a recreational practice. So, know, climbing silks and stuff. you know, sometimes I think this was the sort of, you know, sensory seeking AuDHD in me, like where, you know, you get really excited and you push yourself and then, you know, you get injured. that I understand, but other things.

where I'd be like following my joy and my excitement and existing in the way that I want it to be, if I tried to restrain that, it would actually be worse. It would be a million times harder and it would make the burnout worse. And, then you're talking with people who are like, well, no, you have to restrain it because that will make you better. And it really just amplified things tenfold. And then,

you are told about like the cyclical emotions. And so I was, I went on a mood stabilizer for a bit and then that just made me anxious, So like the trying to police my intensity did not work. And so I had to be like, okay, this is clearly the way that my body wants to operate. But I still had this sort of

Amy Parrish (09:38)
Yes.

Kelly (10:02)
self-hatred thing about it, where I was like, God, why can't I just operate consistently? Yeah, why can't I just? And there was this pivotal moment getting back into my writing. I was reading an interview with Katherine May, who is openly autistic,

Amy Parrish (10:11)
Why can't I just? Why can't I just?

Kelly (10:24)
It was this amazing interview where she was talking about operating in extremes. And it was the first time that I had heard someone talk about that in a good way and kind of critique a lot of the ways of working, which just assumed that we are supposed to operate consistently at one level all the time. ⁓ And yeah, it was truly game changing for me because I was like,

Amy Parrish (10:35)
Hmm.

Kelly (10:53)
my God, people are like this and I don't have to hate myself for being like this. And, that really changed my approach. And then, you you start looking at the thinkers who are talking about this kind of thing and you start recognizing the patterns and you realize that they're all autistic. And many of them, AuDHDers as well.

And so that's when it's like, okay, this is autistic burnout. This is a whole different approach. And the way that people approach burnout is not going to work. And I'm still figuring out how it's going to work. And it will probably take several years to unpack it and completely change the paradigm of how I'm living. it's nice to be closer to that kind of, it's nice to have that kind of knowing.

of like, okay, this is at the very least the direction that I'm heading in and I have language. I think it's for people like us, language to wrap around something is really useful. Like just in terms of feeling, you know, feeling safe and secure and validated. I think one of the most game changing things. And also why diagnosis is so validating in the first place.

Amy Parrish (11:57)
So, so

Yeah, it makes me think about how when people are telling you just slow down, get rest, blah, blah. And it's like, you're taking a diesel car and trying to put gasoline in it. You're like, no, man, I don't take gas. I take diesel. if you keep trying to fill my tank up with gasoline, it's gonna mess me up. Please, my fuel is different.

Kelly (12:21)
Yeah.

Exactly.

Amy Parrish (12:35)
The way that I need to work my way through this is not by sitting down and sitting still.

Kelly (12:42)
Yeah. it's so interesting to you saying that because I'm thinking about, I've always had this weird relationship with there's something about people's perceptions of when you deserve to take a break or when you deserve to be tired or deserve to be sick. And it comes through embodying a certain sequencing of actions.

that validate that sickness or tiredness. And if you do something that deviates from that and their perception of what that exhaustion or whatever break that you want to take is, then that will be denied and taken away from you. So you kind of have to go back and show them the breadcrumbs of your exhaustion. So this is something that I've

to like unfortunately embody this very neurotypical way of doing things where I would be nervous that if I showed if I was generally in a period or like phase of feeling pretty exhausted and really like not being able to take on any additional demands but then I would find a little spot or a glimmer where it's like ⁓ this actually gives me energy.

I can really indulge myself in this. I would feel afraid to take it because it would contradict the narrative of my exhaustion and then all of those demands would be put back on me.

Amy Parrish (14:15)
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I have never heard anybody put it that way, but that is exactly right. It's like, oh, if I'm down, I gotta be all the way down. I can't be like, mm.

Kelly (14:16)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah!

Amy Parrish (14:31)
No, I have to be like, I'm miserable. I'm just not feeling well. I'm totally not capable of doing any. I can't be sort of capable and sort of not. I have to be all capable or all not capable.

Kelly (14:34)
Yeah!

There

is no room for nuance.

Amy Parrish (14:46)
which is the entire life of an AuDHD gifted person is all nuance, all the things. It's like sometimes I just don't feel like it. But then you take that out over the threshold and it's like, well, why don't I feel like it? I just don't.

Kelly (14:50)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Amy Parrish (15:10)
And

Kelly (15:11)
Yeah.

Amy Parrish (15:12)
that's not a good enough answer.

Kelly (15:14)
I always called some of my like tendencies like people pleasing for a lot of my life. I honestly, people pleasing kind of assumes this framework of like, oh,

I mean, put simply, I'm trying to please the other person. And I guess to an extent that's true, but it comes from this very real survival mechanism where it's like, if I don't adhere to what this person wants or expects from me, I will not get what I need. That's just it. And so it's like, OK, if this person, I need to make myself available at all times for someone, or I need to say yes to what they are offering me.

because otherwise, I won't have what I need to survive or I will be rejected. ⁓ And I guess you... Yeah, no, exactly. ⁓ Like, that will... Exactly, exactly.

Amy Parrish (16:00)
or I can't have it next time.

Yeah, like if

I turn this down once, then I will not have access to it ever again. And if I have access to it, so if I turn it down, but then I say yes, then they're gonna think I was a liar when I said no.

Kelly (16:18)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.

Amy Parrish (16:24)
my God.

my God. That is just like.

That is so, ⁓ it's so interesting. I was talking to Kelly ⁓ about, ⁓ other Kelly, about codependency and neurodivergence and how it's, to me, I'm starting to think it's a whole, it's a whole different thing.

Kelly (16:47)
Yeah,

I've had to untangle and kind of deconstruct my thinking around co-dependency because I also think, I mean, we live in a very hyper-individuated society. we are expected to be completely autonomous individuals who, you know, operate completely on our own, very self-sufficient.

⁓ make our own living and that's that. And so I think there is a sort of conflation of interdependence and codependence that happens quite a bit. And I actually think what a lot of people are calling codependence, which don't get me wrong. There are absolutely codependent relationships that are like super unhealthy and you know.

end up going into abusive territory. And that is completely legit and his own thing. ⁓ But I also think that the label's been stretched a little bit to include any kind of form of people showing up for and supporting one another in a way that is atypical. I don't know. It gets to a point where it's like, okay, is me

I don't know, showing up for my partner in this way, codependent, or is it just like, we're people who have more support needs than the average person, and so therefore require a little bit more of that interdependence between people. ⁓ You know, and it's a slippery slope, clearly, and I'm very curious as to what Kelly and also you have to say about it. ⁓

Amy Parrish (18:30)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kelly (18:42)
You know, I think in particular, so many neurodivergent people tend to go like very deep, very quickly. And, you know, as the colloquial slang term is like trauma dump on each other, which connecting over shared trauma. Okay. ⁓ You know, sometimes again, these terms, like they can be very liberally used. And I think it really depends like on the situation. So yeah, I'm curious.

Amy Parrish (19:11)
That's so interesting because it just thinking about, mean, and I'm not that much farther along than you are. I got my autism diagnosis in October of last year. So I'm like five months ahead of you basically. So not really that far, but most of my conversations with other neurodivergent people, AuDHD people, gifted people, et cetera, have been not about

Kelly (19:22)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Amy Parrish (19:40)
the trauma, but about life experience and then also sharing the experiences that match. it's not like, there's not a traumatic feel to it, even though it of course has been painful, but like,

Kelly (19:44)
Yeah! ⁓

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah, of course.

Amy Parrish (20:09)
I think the recognition in the conversation takes the trauma piece out of it and then it becomes a resonance between two people who have shared a similar experience.

Kelly (20:19)
Yes.

completely agree. Yeah, I think when you find someone who is at the same frequency as you, and you don't have to hold back your intensity, you can just allow it to exist. that is the most beautiful thing in the world. And of course, you're going to dive in deep

We don't have time to do all that bullshit, you know, small talk and whatever, and it's not fun anyway. And so like, you're gonna get deep really quickly. And yeah. Yes, yes, totally. I think that that's like one of the best blessings of

Amy Parrish (20:53)
and be able to follow the thread.

Kelly (21:02)
becoming friends, particularly with other AuDHD gifted people, such as yourself is like, just being able to really embrace the skip thinking and like the info dumps and the ways of sharing that are just so unique and just let them out. it's so delightful. And even again, there's such a diversity of

I think autistic experiences and AuDHD experiences, but there is something about that inner world that stays consistent. Like I think the phenomenological experience of being particularly an AuDHD gifted person, but then also, you know, an autistic person is very similar, despite the external presentation. And it's why I do think that we need to be really suspicious of

our behaviorist-led psychological culture, which operates in deficits, which of course has been extensively critiqued. But I am really astonished at how much that persists about what is the tip of the iceberg and what is shown versus what actually happens when you dive deep into people, because that ends up being the real truth of, I

a lot of these, you know, sorts of stereotypes or even diagnostic criteria sometimes it's like, have you sat down with an autistic person and talked with them?

Amy Parrish (22:33)
Yeah, do

you even know any autistic people at all? And have you been with them, not in the context of your office, but do you know people in life that are neurodivergent and have you spent time with them? And are you close enough with them that they can share their experience with you?

Kelly (22:39)
Yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I think that's also why like, you know, I think having the medical model to rest on, you know, obviously is a tool that we can use. And that can be handy. But, you know, once you kind of have that or even not having that, I just think the social model is, I mean, not only so legitimate, but also like a million times more interesting.

Amy Parrish (23:26)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly (23:27)
Like

there's so much that's like missed, I think in, nailing down versus like whether someone meets three or four elements of diagnostic criteria versus like what is actually going on internally,

Amy Parrish (23:46)
was there imposter syndrome kind of stuff that happened for you? either before or afterwards?

Kelly (23:53)
Oh my God, mean both, yeah. All the time. I mean, I'm experiencing imposter syndrome right now. absolutely. I have to really practice zooming in and zooming out. I think particularly with the autistic piece, because that one is the one where, I mean, it's the most stigmatized,

Giftedness is a whole other animal and I think it's stigmatized in a different way, but it's not like this huge discriminatory framework that is being used in really dangerous ways right now against autistic people. ADHD I think is a lot more accepted right now than autism is. And so there,

are stereotypes of ADHD, but there's also really strong stereotypes of autism. And I know that I do not exhibit those stereotypes. And of course that comes with a ton of privilege. like, you know, I'm very lucky to be able to move around and operate and to kind of.

and mask and camouflage and make my way through the world sometimes as if I'm neurotypical though the neurodivergent always leaks out. I can't help myself but you know I think particularly

Amy Parrish (25:24)
Well, you think

that if you had not had to mask so much to fit, to be okay in the world, I wonder how autistic I would be.

Kelly (25:38)
Yeah.

almost wonder if that is the wrong question of how autistic because we're both very autistic, but and there's like no degree, but I think like what how would that affect our presentation outwardly? I am curious about that. I mean, even right now being conscious of the fact that we're being recorded, you know, I'm aware of like

Amy Parrish (26:07)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly (26:09)
There are certain elements where I'm unmasking right now and there are certain elements where I am masking and you kind of are just like balancing those. it's not an on or off switch. It's more of like, in my case, it feels like volume levels where there's just like, okay, we're going to do like, you know, 60, 40, like masking and unmasking and these qualities I'm going to allow to exist in these that.

Amy Parrish (26:31)
Hmm.

Kelly (26:35)
And sometimes it happens subconsciously even. But yeah, I'm curious about that too. I don't know. Again, masking, think there's this...

I mean, it's a whole can of worms. I think there's this assumption that unmasking is something that is more easeful and just shed your skin and be free. And, you know, of course it's not like that. It's very painful and difficult and even untangling what is masking versus what is unmasking and figuring out like, especially when you have fucked up interoception is really difficult to

figure out. And then you have all these like assumptions about what masking looks like and what unmasking looks like. And yeah, but I mean, masking is a tool, it, you know, allows us to show up in the world in certain ways. And sometimes it can be very useful, you know. Now, is it sustainable all the time? God, no.

⁓ and I'm kind of undoing that within myself, but I'm kind of like, okay, if I am to take the emotion out of it and just truly see masking and unmasking as frameworks that I can use. And they're just in my toolkit and I can kind of take them out and be like, okay, I'm going to use this here and use this here. a little like hacker of conversations and situations.

it can actually be a really useful form of energy management. And also there are certain situations where it's not safe to be unmasked, whether it's, you know, literally or figuratively. And so using it as a tool for safety, but then also like of, I mean, God's survival of, you know,

Sometimes even I'm like, okay, I'm gonna mask actually as an act of kindness to this person because knowing how they will perceive it because ⁓ you know, you become accustomed after certain points being like, okay, if I don't respond in a certain way to, you know, this person's question or statement or something it will create

a whole other situation and I don't wanna deal with that situation. So I'm gonna mask actually as a tool of energy conservation because it means that I won't have to like do damage control later. So it's a, it's not a black or white situation. So yeah, but going back to the imposter syndrome, I...

Amy Parrish (29:17)
Hmm.

I

was like, ⁓

Kelly (29:29)
Yeah, I think having a, I definitely resonate with the PDA profile for sure. I think it's one of the ways in which autism makes sense to me, I grew up very much. I mean, one, I was super privileged. I had a nanny.

Amy Parrish (29:38)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly (29:50)
who really indulged my special interests and my hyperlexic tendencies. And, you know, I would write books, when I was a little kid and she would laminate them and you know, certain things like that. But me too. Yeah.

Amy Parrish (30:06)
I love that about your experience, by the way. I just think it's so

wonderful to hear someone talk about having an experience of being supported in that way without the knowledge that that was happening, but that it was allowed to happen.

Kelly (30:16)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, it's, I'm so lucky. It's wild. Like so, so lucky. You know, a lot of my tendencies, like again, it was like, that's just Kelly. that's just her personality. But a lot of the, like,

The PDA profile in particular of the being in your imagination all the time to an excessive extent. I am in my own inner world and imagination. I mean, like 90 % of the time, it's really excessive. And I script 24 seven as well, even when I'm in a relaxed or

you know, I'll be on a walk and I'll find myself scripting by accident. I think what's really interesting about that is I was always told when I was a child, or even just growing up and being a teenager, young adult of like, when I was in public being like, wow, you're so happy all the time.

I can't help being in a space, just being very animated and boom, she's there. And again, that doesn't really line up with how people experience autism. But for me, makes sense. One, I think because the ADHD social motivation does kind of take the wheel a little bit. But then also from a PDA perspective, it's like, well,

I need to put my full effort into these social interactions. And so, of course, I'm going to be putting my everything I have into this very unimportant conversation. Because it feels crucial that I have to be there and I have to give a full effort to it, if I'm going to be out in public.

And I think with the demand avoidance piece, it's like, in order to deserve my rest time and my solitude, you really emphasize the extremes of the being out in public and the performing the role of like animated person. And then you are able to kind of retreat some, usually for longer. And then you kind of emerge again. And then it's like these undulating waves of how much

rest do I deserve, And so, yeah, yeah, pretty much. It's like, okay, great. I don't, here's the thing is I'm trying to untangle this. I think to an extent, yes. And then I also think...

Amy Parrish (32:56)
Yeah, is it like you're earning your keep?

Is that people pleasing for you?

Kelly (33:15)
It's kind of fun. Like I get to do my little show and then, but, it's not like the show is false necessarily. It's just more of an exaggerated version of what's going on in there. a lot of it is, think letting the hyperactivity and the passion and the intensity for things, letting a lot of my, um, AuDHD E-Joy.

lead and like take the wheel and be interest led. And then, you know, of course, like you're going to burn out after a bit, but I think when you embrace the joy in it, that is easier to embody for a longer period of time than the very surface level, calm, convenient, like

neurotypical conversation. So I think it makes sense that I've been, you know, called intense, not in the way that people usually think of it, which is brooding, which of course there's that, but in the like, big like, joy intense, which is not the way that people typically think of it. And so having all those things my

identity feels so fragile, knowing that because that again, that's not how people think of what we are in any way. But then I also hear other AuDHD people talking about their experience, particularly PDAers and you know, those line up with my experience as well. And so having that sort of relation to other people is like, okay.

But I have to zoom out a lot and be like, okay, is it helpful for me right now to.

question my identity. who is that helpful for? Is that helpful for me? Is that helpful for anyone else around me? To go on a complete rumination spiral about whether or not I'm autistic or whether or not I have ADHD or anything else or whether I'm making it up for attention. Like who, truly I've, I have, I fit the diagnostic criteria. I've been validated by

you know, clinicians and I'm here and I resonate with the experiences of other AuDHD people. And at the end of the day, that's it. So, but again, the temptation, think, especially now that I have the certainty of diagnosis, now that I'm not fighting for it and not really working within that process of like toward the

getting the validation. It's a whole other process of okay, do I believe myself? you know, there will be moments where I really do in moments when I really don't. And that's where I have to turn to my supports and, you know, zoom in, zoom out, whatever is most useful at the moment.

Amy Parrish (36:24)
What would you have done if it came back not? if they had just said, no, you're not meeting the criteria.

Kelly (36:33)
Yeah, I don't know. it's, I'm ⁓ what you would call a complex psychiatric case because of everything I've got going on. But I, the process that I went through is essentially like, perform, performed, performed my, I kind of did a DIY.

Neuropsych instead of doing because unfortunately, they're so inaccessible and cost thousands of dollars. And you have to be on a waitlist for a year or two years before you can get access to a neuropsych, which is ridiculous. But I did an autism assessment and it was truly just drilling down into is it a yes or no for autism and they

assessed for like they included co-occurring conditions in their analysis. But if you weren't diagnosed with those co-occurring conditions yet, then it wouldn't really be taken into consideration except as sort of an afterthought. So that already like I hadn't been diagnosed with ADHD yet, which really complicates my presentation. especially because in terms of

how I project and present myself. typically the ADHD tends to take the lead and you know, and I would say also the giftedness as well, which I didn't know that either. ⁓ Sidebar, ⁓ getting ID'd as gifted at 28 is so funny. it's like, cause you know, that's, it's something where most people, I mean, to my knowledge, I wasn't identified as it in

elementary school. mean, I was around that time, I think I was like moving and also going through a tough time because it was like after big period of change in my life. But yeah, I got ID'd as gifted in my autism assessment. So that's also a completely new identity, which is really funny and also a relief to embody as an adult. Like,

Amy Parrish (38:46)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kelly (38:54)
Because it's also ⁓ like, what do you, it's a framework that allows for self understanding, but also is like, I'm not going to disclose to my workplace, hi, I'm gifted. Here's what I need in terms of accommodations. Because that wouldn't be taken seriously, even though it should, by the way. Because it is a disability. ⁓

Amy Parrish (39:17)
Yes.

Kelly (39:22)
But returning to the assessment, so it was a pretty brief assessment and I also didn't know exactly what was going into all of it. like there were, and I also started the assessment at a time when my sensory issues were like really terrible and I was so desperate to find an answer for that.

that I kind of signed up for the autism assessment and really led with that and was like, I don't even care about the rest of it. Like, I just kind of want to find an answer to the sensory issues. And then through the whole process of researching and going on a deep, special interest, monotropic and dive into the research behind autism, I was like, wait, shit, like this actually might be.

me and it's I've never heard my experience described so well. Like the recognition was staggering. I would actually like I'd be on a walk listening to a podcast of someone talking about their experience and would stop in my tracks just because of the resonance was so I mean incredibly deep and particularly like AuDHDers who also had OCD. was like my god like this is this is like the missing piece. ⁓

And so as you're coming to that realization, I think in particular with the skip thinking, it's hard to remember that other people are not coming along on that journey with you. as you're learning and realizing all these things, there's so many revelations and you can't possibly communicate them all. And in such a limited time with my assessor, you know, in the first session, she

said something along the lines of, yeah, so sometimes we refer people for like an outside in-person session if it's undecided, I don't think that will be you. And in a complete misinterpretation of what she was saying, I was like, ⁓ I'm obviously meeting the criteria in her eyes. So I can kind of allow more nuance.

to exist in this assessment. I had had a whole plan of how I was going to tee up things about giving a lot of background about my non-stereotypical presentation and certain things. that kind of I relaxed in a way that maybe I shouldn't have. But we continued on. And I got to the feedback session. And I was actually pretty sure that I would be validated.

Amy Parrish (41:56)
Mmm.

Kelly (42:09)
And, you know, to be fair, I wasn't invalidated. She was like, so right now, you know, you meet criteria B, 100%, to a T, every single one pretty much, ⁓ which you're not required to meet every single one of the criteria B, but I did. ⁓ And she said criteria A, which is the social reciprocity differences, which is,

that's where a lot of my masking ends up resonating. And also where I think the co-occurrences with ADHD and then the PDA aspects like really come in. especially if you're thinking of it from a deficit-based mindset, she was like, I do hear a lot about it from your experience in the testimonials that we got, which the surveys that they send to people are very rooted in

Amy Parrish (42:53)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly (43:03)
ABA, like very behaviorist kind of ⁓ questions that they're asking without much nuance and without drilling down into the heart of the, you know, phenomenological experience, which I didn't know I even had to tee up to people. She was like, you know, it's not really as clear right now. So right now it's inconclusive, but I, you know, I would like to, we can keep working together.

Um, and it was very clear that like, was not a finished thing, but my all or nothing brain went, I've been rejected. I, I, I, and I truly, I, I had a full blown meltdown, during the call because I couldn't, I, you know, she paused for a second and that was enough to just um, and.

Amy Parrish (43:39)
You

Kelly (43:58)
I kind of split myself where I was just crying and unable to speak, but I had to be like, I want you to know that I'm fine. But also I do need to get this out of me. So like I'm good. I'm just trying to communicate to you right now. But I, know, this is just something I will take care of later. ⁓

Amy Parrish (44:16)
And by the way, then she was like, nevermind that shit I just said, because what you just did absolutely is exactly what.

Kelly (44:26)
Well, here's the thing is at the end of the call, she was like, I do want to validate you. you know, ⁓ don't feel rejected. you are part of a community. You are autistic. And I'm like, but you just said what?

Amy Parrish (44:39)
Wait, these mixed messages are not working for me.

Kelly (44:42)
No. And so I went into this period of deep grief I truly was like off the call and I mean, meltdown, full nervous breakdown as well. rest of the day could not function and for the rest of the week, to be honest. And I was like, I fully like,

not in a colloquial sense. was like, did I like, is this a delusion, like fully? I was like, am I you know, there's patterns of you know, bipolar encyclothymia, diagnosis and you know, certain things in my family, which I don't even, validity of those I'm learning, I'm kind of like, is that.

Amy Parrish (45:18)
my

Kelly (45:34)
misdiagnosed perhaps for not knowing what to do with someone who has fluctuating moods and is intense. But ⁓ I was like, my God, maybe I truly must be so off track because I how did I convince myself of this narrative? And thank God I had a

an appointment with my therapist who is so neuroaffirming and, you know, got on a call with her and I was like, yeah, I mean, maybe it's just ADHD or something else, but you know, whatever. And she was like, you sure? Sure. You know, because a lot of what you're describing, even just in terms of your reaction, in

Amy Parrish (46:13)
You're like...

Kelly (46:24)
typical competitive fashion in my therapist called it like the, I'll show you, sort of complex. You assemble the document and the research and the lore of okay, I'm not crazy, here is my proof. And it ends up being pages and pages and pages of things. And my therapist was like, yeah, that's every single autistic person does this.

Amy Parrish (46:32)
Yeah.

That is so funny because I mean that feeling of Have I got this totally freaking wrong? Am I fucking crazy? Am I in another reality that no one else is in and I this is like one of my biggest things my whole life is is not being in the alternate reality

Kelly (46:58)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Amy Parrish (47:16)
And then somebody being like, what are you taught? Where are you? we're all here and you're someplace none of us can see.

Kelly (47:16)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

my God, so that resonates so much. This is gonna sound like a tangent, but it's not. I've been really into the Gothic, as a genre for quite a bit. And I think it might've been Carmen Maria Machado, who was kind of talking about different kinds of horror and fantasy along, you know, this sort of scalar spectrum.

but maybe it wasn't, maybe it was someone else, but like about the Gothic sort of being this slightly off kilter form of reality, everything appears normal on the surface, but something is off. And that's kind of why I love about like, I mean, watch a Gothic TV show or a movie and all the interactions will be the same.

But there will be like really creepy music in the background or eerie music, which is what it feels like quite a bit. It's just there is something extra diegetic going on that is not you know, being perceived by other people or, you know, the way that the language is structured in a Gothic novel and kind of like winds around is very creepy and atmospheric is I feel very much like

the autistic experience and also just the neurodivergent experience in general. But and also so much of the Gothic is about being invalidated,

Amy Parrish (48:55)
that's exactly what I was thinking about

Kelly (48:58)
yeah, there's, I mean, it's, I'm gonna call out one of my favorite academics, which is Laura Westengard, who wrote Gothic Queer Culture. The subtitle, I think, is ⁓ Marginalized Identities and the Ghosts of Insidious Trauma. And my gosh, the referring to trauma as insidious and as something that isn't perceived as legitimate.

unless it's like one big event, but that like, for a lot of people with a marginalized identity or a disability, like kind of creeps up and becomes a snowball that is makes up a life. You know, experiencing the world's dramatically essentially is, you know, very much that experience. And I mean, basically every Gothic hero or heroine is told you're crazy.

Amy Parrish (49:54)
Yes.

Kelly (49:54)
like one point or another, and you're making it all up and you're being dramatic. And those are experiences that really resonate with me and wounds that I've had to undo. And so seeing that reflected in a story is actually really comforting because it's like, my God, I'm not alone, you know?

Amy Parrish (50:16)
Yes, yes, that's like the best part about.

because being diagnosed or even whether you're self diagnosing or you're formally diagnosed when you feel almost that sense of like, am belong. I belong

Kelly (50:35)
I belong.

Amy Parrish (50:40)
I don't have to pretend.

Kelly (50:39)
I also like, I like how accidentally

you phrased it as I am belong, because that makes me I'm like, ⁓ I am belong. I am belong. Something in me like, I think getting into Victorian sensation novels and Gothic fiction. There was something in me that was like,

Amy Parrish (50:47)
I'm belong.

Kelly (51:01)
Yes, absolutely. Even though it doesn't make sense that I'm into the Gothic because a lot of times my body cannot bear horror as a genre at all. And the distinction between the two is so slight that if you enjoy one, you're supposed to really enjoy the other. I just I mean, at least horror in a movie sense, cannot do a jump scare. My nervous system will freak the fuck out.

But I'll be reading it being like, is, yes, it's more of like an existential kind of horror.

Amy Parrish (51:40)
Because you're in the expectation of the thing that's off. it's not actually, strangely, it almost feels like home. yeah. the thing that's like, this is where I live. So this is actually really almost comforting and entertaining to me because I'm not waiting.

Kelly (51:47)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Amy Parrish (52:07)
for the surprise. I'm just enjoying what's happening here.

Kelly (52:10)
Yes.

Yeah, there's also something about the Gothic as a genre in which, I mean, I in terms of the part of me that really loves repetition and I mean, ⁓ God, I would, I watched Mamma Mia like 10 times ⁓ in Sound of Music, I would play in my head on repeat every single night as a kid. every single night,

the repetition of tropes and structure in Gothic novels and romance novels and even fantasy novels is really comforting for one. And it also I mean, it's a form of pattern recognition, too. it's very satisfying of being yes, I know where this is going. And I feel like sometimes people are like, it was predictable. And I'm like, yes, it is.

cause that's how it works. it is a paradigm. It's a structure. It's a trope. And what's cool about the Gothic is it always resolves, but it resolves with a wink at the end of like, yeah. And everything was fixed, but not really, you know? it's like, of course there's still going to be, it doesn't deny everything that happened in the middle.

it doesn't make it untrue. It's like, yeah, there's this kind of temporary fix that you know, I guess the couple gets married or whatever, but there's still this underlying dread or something at the end.

Amy Parrish (53:45)
Yet,

it's like diagnosis itself.

Kelly (53:49)
Yeah, the gothic is a metaphor for diagnosis.

Amy Parrish (53:54)
I'm so glad we could get to this point and now we've just we've solved it all.

Kelly (53:56)
I know me. You

should just like open the podcast with like the Gothic as diagnosis. Boom. And that's it.

⁓ I was telling my diagnosis story. But yeah, so going back to that, I, you know, really dove in deep doing like

you know, conducting an auto ethnography, essentially of my life. I really love devised theater because it's like this bottom up process of gathering material that you already have and you just haven't noticed for a while and compiling it and making it into something. Like taking all the fragmented pieces of yourself and applying a lens to it and

just allowing all of them to exist and be presented for someone. that's like the beauty of like any you know, devised piece of theater or anything that kind of uses bottom-up processing as a tool is that mode of discovery of allowing things to just trickle in and connect to one another without

you know, and you make these connections and sometimes you don't even know where it's going and then you realize later you're like, my god, I was thinking about this without thinking about this. I essentially went back, got more testimonials from family and my roommate and best friend who had lived with me for three years, who knew me very well, who's

brother is autistic and who is also an Audi-HD-er, you know, and as it turns out, I didn't even need to do the ethnography, the testimonials and the redone surveys, that the additional pieces of information to kind of confirm and back up my evidence.

was enough. And, you know, that allowed my assessor to just click the like, okay, autism button. I was still going. I didn't know that had been you know, decided yet. But I, I'm glad I did because one, I hadn't felt that creative in a long time. You know, I have my writing, but that was a form of theater making that I was just so

driven. And I think through that process, I was able to prove to myself that I was, you know, it was like, no, this is this is real, and I wasn't wrong. And I am smart. And I came to this logically. And it's not a delusion. you know, I am autistic. And, you know,

even if that doesn't look the way that people expect it. And I think that particularly, I'm glad I went through that process as well, because I think, I won't name who the family member was, ⁓ figuring out that there was a family member who had a very resonant experience to mine and had been diagnosed with something else and kind of,

prying that open a little bit and being like, ⁓ my God, like this is, these traits are a part of like my family history and lineage. And there's so much neurodivergence in my family that like, whether you want to like call it that or not, like I think a lot of like generations that are in my family are not too fond of labels and that's fine, but

being able to identify those traits and be like, my God, and reach a whole new level of understanding with certain people was game changing, which if denial or being, I guess having inconclusive results for a week and a half, which isn't even that long. like, isn't like, yeah, it is. It felt like forever. ⁓ my God, it was excruciating. I like have never.

Amy Parrish (58:11)
I mean, yeah, it is. It totally is.

Kelly (58:20)
You know, there's the Dabrowski theory and giftedness of positive disintegration. And I literally felt like I, my sense of self had been shattered completely. And then I kind of had to reform it again into something else. you know, and then, you know, got the diagnosis and she was like, you definitely need to look, you know, put in my assessment report as well. She was like,

please look into giftedness and ADHD because you then got my ADHD diagnosis. She had identified me as gifted, but you don't really need to go to like, you know, I, I definitely want to, I've been researching it and that's been delightful. you know, checking into it, but, and there's the chronic pain pieces as well, which is a whole other adventure that I'm still untangling is just,

a part of the experience of like, AuDHD and how that resonates in the body. But yeah.

Amy Parrish (59:24)
I wonder,

it would be interesting and I don't know at all, but I wonder the more that your experience, like as you just did all this work of validating your own experience, which is so incredibly powerful to not go, it's almost like it was similar to me because after I just had

Kelly (59:41)
Yeah.

Amy Parrish (59:53)
a little bit of time of like, ⁓ grief and sadness. But then I was also like, my God, I could have like 40 years or 50 years as this person. I'm so excited about this. And my age did that for me, but that's exactly what you creating your auto ethnography did for you. It gave you that.

Kelly (1:00:04)
Yeah. Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Amy Parrish (1:00:20)
piece of inner certainty that was like, I'm not messing around with doubt. And because of that, I wonder if you'll be able to experience yourself in ways that free up the energy that is stuck in your body and causing pain.

Kelly (1:00:25)
Yeah, exactly.

I think so. mean, yeah, there's so much that I'm doing right now, like even in occupational therapy, ⁓ you know, there's the experience of being validated leads to this sort of unclenching that I think is such a game changer in so many ways.

I think recognizing that you're dealing with burnout and taking steps to work on that definitely helps. And there are certainly things that it's like, yeah, I'm going to continue to get migraines and I'm going to continue to feel this widespread neuropathy and body pain. And that's going to be there, but I can recognize when a flare up is coming and take...

preventative action and make some lifestyle changes to make sure that the pain is actually going to be addressed and that I feel my best. Yeah.

Amy Parrish (1:01:44)
Yeah, because you

can address it. This brings us, circles us around to what we were talking about before of what rest and slowing down looks like. You're going to be able to formulate your own ways of actual recovery that is your system's idea of what recovery is.

Kelly (1:01:57)
Mm-hmm.

Yes, exactly. Yeah. And again, that's still coming together, but every time I find a new thread or a piece of it, I get so excited. And even that, the knowing and the figuring out what fits feels like recovery. Like that's a crucial part of it is that self-knowledge of like, my God, I have a tool, I know what to do. when for a

good portion of your life, you just thought that you had to deal with it a part of your experience. it's such a game changer. Now, is there a skill regression, like ugly piece to it? Of course, but

my gosh, mean, there's Sarah Theresa Cook on Substack who writes this For the Birds publication said, skill regression is just the body's response to the possibility of increased care. And that sentence, I was like, yeah, that's it. you know, it's going to look

ugly, but I'd rather have it look ugly and like start to feel a little bit better in the long term especially, then continue to just like keep banging my head against the wall. And I wouldn't be able to anyway.

Amy Parrish (1:03:46)
And it's such a, it's such a manmade thing for things to have to look pretty. You know what I was just thinking about? know, a lion going after a kill is not like, how does my butt look? That is not a thing. That lion is just like, I need to eat. That is my food and I'm going to get it.

Kelly (1:04:01)
my gosh.

Yeah! Yeah!

Yeah, that's how I like to approach food as well.

Amy Parrish (1:04:20)
That is my food.

Kelly (1:04:20)
That is my

food and I am going to get it.

So my partner calls me trucker Kelly because I tend to just slam head first into situations. So if I'm hungry, it's like, okay, it's now. Like, I think it's like.

Amy Parrish (1:04:40)
How does my butt look

Kelly (1:04:41)
I've been often called out walking confidently in the wrong direction of somewhere just having one like no sense of where I am in space, like at all. but also just being like, yeah, this is the way and people being like, you don't even know where we're going.

Amy Parrish (1:04:59)
Like,

yes I do.

Kelly (1:05:01)
Yeah, yes, I do.

I have a purpose that is not verbal to me yet, but I'll find it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Amy Parrish (1:05:09)
It's there. It's out here somewhere and it might not be this direction. It might be that direction. But right

now I'm going over here. Trust me on this one.

Kelly (1:05:16)
Yeah. Yeah,

Exactly.

Amy Parrish (1:05:19)
my God, Kelly, we're so similar. It's really uncanny. Like.

Kelly (1:05:24)
I know.

It's so funny, also just us being like at different ages, on one hand, I'm not surprised. And then on the other hand, it's so beautiful, that it's like, you know, 28 year old and a 54 year old, you know, having such resonant experiences is really cool.

Amy Parrish (1:05:52)
It's so, and it's so interesting because there is that ageless quality of I'm chronologically 54, but I do not feel like, and I also.

Kelly (1:06:05)
Yeah. And that's not what

I get from you either.

Amy Parrish (1:06:08)
If I'm around people who are my age, I'm like, my gosh, there's grownups here. And I'm like, wait, actually I'm also in my 50s. It's very weird. It's very, very weird.

Kelly (1:06:17)
It's disorienting, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Amy Parrish (1:06:24)
All right. My brain wants to keep talking, but my brain is also like,

Kelly (1:06:27)
My

I know, a part of me is like,

we're in shutdown mode now.

Amy Parrish (1:06:33)
I have a like, I have about an hour and a half, two hour block.

Kelly (1:06:38)
Mm hmm. Yep.

Yep. And then I'm like, OK, we're done. I actually, one of my neighbors, we were doing a game night and we're very similar just in terms of energy management and, you know, capacity. And she was like one of the most liberating things that I ever experienced from you is that night, you got to the point where you were like,

Okay, I'm done. Everyone out. I'm going upstairs now. You guys can remain down here with my roommate if you want, but I am leaving and just bounced, which I don't often give myself permission to do. I think sometimes when I'm comfortable around a nurse, but it's really funny. Yeah, we should do that more.

Amy Parrish (1:07:08)
Bye.

Yes, that

that is the recovery that we're talking about. That is the action that's yeah, okay, we're done here. the end.

Kelly (1:07:30)
Exactly.

Yeah, yeah.

That is the may I say rebelling.

Amy Parrish (1:07:40)
That's right. That's absolutely right. I see what you did there. my God. Kelly, many, many more conversations. I'm so glad you're in the world and the threads, the threads of the pieces that are just so interesting.

Kelly (1:07:45)
Yeah, thank you. Finger guns.

I would like that a lot.

Amy Parrish (1:08:00)
of our common experience. Just like, so validating.

Kelly (1:08:02)
Yeah. ⁓